How long before expiry to renew? Will our residency situation be a problem?

[jnt211]

I am a Canadian citizen, my husband and son are PRs. We moved to Toronto in fall 2019 and planned to live in Canada permanently (while there our second child was born, so she too is a citizen). Due to Covid we ended up relocating back to the US at the end of 2020 - so lived in Canada about 400 days.

Since moving back to the US my husband and son have always been living with me (and my daughter). My understanding is that this will therefore continue to meet the residency requirement since they are living with a Canada citizen - is that understanding correct?

We still plan to move back to Canada, but if we don't before their cards expire in Sept 2024 -when should they begin to apply for renewal? Would renewing from the US be an issue?

I so appreciate any knowledge -- thank you!

 

[YVR123]

I am a Canadian citizen, my husband and son are PRs. We moved to Toronto in fall 2019 and planned to live in Canada permanently (while there our second child was born, so she too is a citizen). Due to Covid we ended up relocating back to the US at the end of 2020 - so lived in Canada about 400 days.

Since moving back to the US my husband and son have always been living with me (and my daughter). My understanding is that this will therefore continue to meet the residency requirement since they are living with a Canada citizen - is that understanding correct?

We still plan to move back to Canada, but if we don't before their cards expire in Sept 2024 -when should they begin to apply for renewal? Would renewing from the US be an issue?

I so appreciate any knowledge -- thank you!

PR card renewal can only be submitted in Canada.

They can apply for PRTD instead if they want to travel after their PR cards expire.

 

[jnt211]

So, they need to be there for an in person interview or show current residency (like active lease agreement or job stubs)? Or is just that there needs to be a Canadian address to send the cards to? Thanks for your help!

 

[YVR123]

So, they need to be there for an in person interview or show current residency (like active lease agreement or job stubs)? Or is just that there needs to be a Canadian address to send the cards to? Thanks for your help!

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/application/application-forms-guides/guide-5445-applying-permanent-resident-card-card-first-application-replacement-renewal-change-gender-identifier.html
Scroll down and read this section and after.

Are you eligible?
To be eligible for a PR card, you must:

• be a permanent resident of Canada;
• be physically present in Canada;
• meet the residency requirement (see Appendix A: Residency obligation);
• not be under an effective removal order;
• not be a Canadian citizen; and
• not be convicted of an offense related to the misuse of a PR card

 

[armoured]

Due to Covid we ended up relocating back to the US at the end of 2020 - so lived in Canada about 400 days.

Since moving back to the US my husband and son have always been living with me (and my daughter). My understanding is that this will therefore continue to meet the residency requirement since they are living with a Canada citizen - is that understanding correct?

We still plan to move back to Canada, but if we don't before their cards expire in Sept 2024 -when should they begin to apply for renewal?

Since you still have quite a bit of time before the cards expire, etc., etc., I'm going to approach differently.

Figure out when you would like to - ideally - return to Canada. If that date is before you will be out of compliance with the residency obligation (RO), it will all be less complicated.

[Side note: I'm assuming children are still minors and not over 22 in near future. Although side question, assume your 'son' may be stepson? Not adopted by you? Not making a distinction (it's none of my business) except that it could mean whether or not he could apply for citizenship. Reading between the lines that daughter is a Cdn citzien.]

Because here's the deal:
-from the date you arrived in Canada, if / until you have been out of Canada less than 1095 days (in any five year period looking back incl from the date of landing), they are compliant with the RO and no issues. Or, roughly, in your case, from appr winter 2023.

-after that, irrespective of date on PR card, they will be out of compliance and may or may not get questioned about this, and may or may not be treated with leniency.

-after Sept 24, without a valid PR card, they would have problems boarding a flight to Canada ... BUT because they're US citizens they can get on the flight. They might get questions at the passport booth, but will still be let in.

At some point, they might get 'reported' f0or not being in compliance, and it might be a hassle, and it might require dealing with by appealing or renouncing and re-sponsoring - but deal with that later.

In the meantime:
-if the long-term plan is to reside in Canada, it will be easier if you all make an attempt to return while still compliant.
-for your spouse, worse case, you can re-sponsor in future. You may or may not be able to make use of the 'accompanying citizen' exception. Deal with that later - keeping in mind it will be less hassle to retain current PR status than to start over. It might be worth some effort to return earlier, while still compliant with the RO.
-for the child who is not a citizen: you/your spouse will not be able to sponsor anew after he turns 22. If not your child (legally), only spouse can sponsor, and he must be compliant with RO to do so. So this is something to pay attention to. (Note my comment about citizenship - it may be worth considering adopting so that he can get citizenship by applying that way - but depends somewhat upon age).

If what you're asking is "can we stay abroad for unknown years (>3 or 5, say) and not have an issue?", I would say it is not prudent - not at all - to rely upon that. Ifyou do, accept that it might mean renouncing and re-applying (or some other form of bureaucratic hassle).

Is it 'worth it' to return, say, summer 2023 (compared to 2024? or when?) to avoid any hassles down the road? A lot more complex and uncertain and you have to decide.

Again I draw attention to the children - sponsoring them (or the son) becomes an impossibility after the 22nd birthday.

 

[armoured]

If that date is before you will be out of compliance with the residency obligation (RO), it will all be less complicated.
....
-from the date you arrived in Canada, if / until you have been out of Canada less than 1095 days (in any five year period looking back incl from the date of landing), they are compliant with the RO and no issues.

I realize I've made an unholy mess of 'you' and 'they' when mostly I meant 'they.' Read these pronouns as apprpriate. Cdn citizen is not subject to any residency obligation. PRs are. If I've confused at some point, ignore.

And again, for purposes here, I've mostly ignored the 'accompanying citizens' provision, not because it doesn't work, but because I think it's more instructive for planning purposes to assume it doesn't apply.

 

[Ponga]

I realize I've made an unholy mess of 'you' and 'they' when mostly I meant 'they.' Read these pronouns as apprpriate. Cdn citizen is not subject to any residency obligation. PRs are. If I've confused at some point, ignore.

And again, for purposes here, I've mostly ignored the 'accompanying citizens' provision, not because it doesn't work, but because I think it's more instructive for planning purposes to assume it doesn't apply.

But, why would it not apply? The whole `Who followed whom' discussion in these forums seems to elude that, in all likely hood, it could apply.

 

[armoured]

But, why would it not apply? The whole `Who followed whom' discussion in these forums seems to elude that, in all likely hood, it could apply.

Then rely on that. I'm saying, start from not using it, and that way it doesn't matter.

My specific issue with it is that it does not provide a reliable and simple way to get the question settled until it's - potentially - too late. And a bit worse, there's not even any clear way to get the question outright adjudicated, except by ... applying for something that makes them settle the issue.

In short, it's not really reliable or predictable. (In my opinion)

And sure, most of the time it might be settled in favour of the PR, in which case, great.

A sort-of separate but related point is that it sounds (to some) like a way to remain PRs basically-for-ever without residing in Canada, which is definitely not what it's intended for, and I believe that this is where most of the problems begin.

But that's a separate discussion really, I just feel more useful for the OP to look at it from the perspective w/o the 'accompanying citizen' angle first. Those who disagree can ignore my points.

 

[dpenabill]

I am a Canadian citizen, my husband and son are PRs. We moved to Toronto in fall 2019 and planned to live in Canada permanently (while there our second child was born, so she too is a citizen). Due to Covid we ended up relocating back to the US at the end of 2020 - so lived in Canada about 400 days.

Since moving back to the US my husband and son have always been living with me (and my daughter). My understanding is that this will therefore continue to meet the residency requirement since they are living with a Canada citizen - is that understanding correct?

We still plan to move back to Canada, but if we don't before their cards expire in Sept 2024 -when should they begin to apply for renewal? Would renewing from the US be an issue?

I so appreciate any knowledge -- thank you!

As others have well noted, to make a PR card application the PR must be IN Canada. Current application form does not even work to make a PR card application (form will not open options for completing a PR card application) unless and until the PR applying declares they are present in Canada. (Obviously, a false declaration would almost certainly lead to severe consequences.)

PRs do not need to renew their PR card to keep status.

If your spouse, and the child with PR status, are U.S. citizens, they do not need a PR card to fly to Canada; and PRs in general do not need a PR card to enter Canada if they arrive at the Port-of-Entry by private vehicle.

"My understanding is that this will therefore continue to meet the residency requirement since they are living with a Canada citizen - is that understanding correct?"​

Mostly, yes. Technically the credit toward RO credit for days a PR is abroad living with a Canadian citizen spouse or parent is based on days "accompanying" the Canadian citizen. The accompanying-citizen-parent credit is available for a PR who is a dependent child of the citizen parent; this means the child is less than 22 years old AND was NEVER married or cohabiting in a common-law relationship. Living together with the parent will easily qualify. Likewise for a PR accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse, notwithstanding some isolated, relatively extreme circumstances in which the credit might be denied based on a determination the PR was not actually "accompanying" the citizen spouse.

No idea why @armoured has somewhat discounted reliance on the accompanying-citizen credit, since it is well established and very often applied, it is dictated by law not just current policy or practice, and for couples who were living in Canada and who moved abroad together, and are living together abroad, there has been no problem with getting this credit. So I share @Ponga's curiosity.

So . . .

"We still plan to move back to Canada, but if we don't before their cards expire in Sept 2024 -when should they begin to apply for renewal? Would renewing from the US be an issue?"​

As noted, you must be physically present IN Canada when making an application for a new PR card.

The fact current PR cards expire does not affect the PR's status. So it is OK if the PR cards expire before the move back to Canada.

Some PRs living abroad visit Canada and make a PR card application while physically present in Canada (so that the required "currently in Canada" declaration is truthful, not a misrepresentation), and either stay awhile, while waiting for a new PR card, or give IRCC a Canadian address they believe they can "use" (which frankly invites issues and has risks, but is so common it is not worth inviting argument about -- generally the truth is what works, so what works best is giving IRCC only a home or residence address that is for the location, the dwelling which is actually the PR's home or primary residence).

Generally, for PRs with no risk of issues with RO compliance, better practice is wait until actually returning to Canada to live before making an application for a new (renewed) PR card.

One aspect of the comments by @armoured I understand and agree with, is that if you will be living abroad indefinitely, for years to come, it is not a good idea to take the current rules for granted. The purpose for granting PR status is to facilitate living in Canada, facilitating PERMANENT settlement in Canada, and RO credit for time abroad is based on EXCEPTIONS. So it is always prudent for a PR abroad to stay aware of what the rules are and have a least a fair idea about how they are being applied. Even the law itself can change (not that any change to the accompanying-citizen credit is in the forecast, but this can change). Additionally, once the PR cards expire there are potential collateral matters that can pose difficulty when you finally are moving to Canada, since some provinces require presentation of a valid PR card to be eligible for certain benefits, such as provincial health care insurance.