Frustrated!!!PLEASE HELP, Leon or anybody. Conjugal Partnership e-mail.

[Erina]

Hello,

I applied outland for my partner under Conjugal Partnership Class. My sponsorship was approved and file transferred to Ankara on June 6. Today we got this e-mail from the officer:

Why you have not chosen to marry in another country such as Turkey or obtain the permission from a judge if your father refused to give legal approval for your marriage?

Here is my history. We cannot get married, because under the Iranian marriage law, woman's father's permission is required and you can't just get married without that permission. My father didn't want us to get married because me and my partner are from two different culture! Also we couldn't be able to live with each other in Iran, because again, as the Iranian law indicates: You can't live with opposite-sex without having a legal marriage proof.

I have submitted TONS AND TONS of documents to prove our relation as genuine and ongoing, and I'm assuming they have already passed that part. They only questioned me why we didn't marry in another country where we didn't need my father's permission. I already have answers for that anyways. But I'm very frustrated and worried... do you think it's a bad sign? I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions and opinions. Many thanks.

 

[McDutch]

If you are Canadian, Iranian Law doesn't really apply to you.
So according to the CIC officer, there are options available to you, but it is your family that is preventing you from doing so.

 

[Güzelyol]

Hello,

I applied outland for my partner under Conjugal Partnership Class. My sponsorship was approved and file transferred to Ankara on June 6. Today we got this e-mail from the officer:

Why you have not chosen to marry in another country such as Turkey or obtain the permission from a judge if your father refused to give legal approval for your marriage?

Here is my history. We cannot get married, because under the Iranian marriage law, woman's father's permission is required and you can't just get married without that permission. My father didn't want us to get married because me and my partner are from two different culture! Also we couldn't be able to live with each other in Iran, because again, as the Iranian law indicates: You can't live with opposite-sex without having a legal marriage proof.

I have submitted TONS AND TONS of documents to prove our relation as genuine and ongoing, and I'm assuming they have already passed that part. They only questioned me why we didn't marry in another country where we didn't need my father's permission. I already have answers for that anyways. But I'm very frustrated and worried... do you think it's a bad sign? I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions and opinions. Many thanks.

I am Canadian and got married in Turkey with an Afghan citizen (living in Turkey). It was not that straighforward because we had to provide documents from the authorities of our respective countries stating that we can marry (that we are single and such). Also, Turkey will not celebrate a marriage that would not be legal in the country of citizenship of any of the fiances. If you can't marry in Iran without your father's permission, it would be difficult for you to get a certificate of celibacy from Iran to get married in Turkey, unless it's true you can get the permission to marry from a judge...

On the other hand, I just checked Damacus/Ankara spreadsheet, and it seems you are the sponsor and Canadian. In that case, you can get the celibacy certificate from Canada and get married in Turkey.

 

[canadianwoman]

Why you have not chosen to marry in another country such as Turkey or obtain the permission from a judge if your father refused to give legal approval for your marriage?

...do you think it's a bad sign? I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions and opinions. Many thanks.

It's a bad sign. However, the good thing is that the visa officer is asking this question and giving you a chance to explain your situation further (which is much better than an outright refusal). If you already explained why you can't get married (because you need your father's permission) it seems that the visa officer thinks this is not a good enough reason. As an adult, really you could get married somewhere else without your father's permission, no matter what Iranian law says. As well, if the PR visa is approved, you will then be living together in Canada with someone of the opposite sex (against Iranian law) or you'll marry your boyfriend (without your father's permission and thus against Iranian law) so the visa officer probably does not see why you couldn't take such a step now.

You will need to either offer more proof and explanation of why you can't get married, or do what the visa officer suggests and get married somewhere else. If you offer more proof and explanation, the visa officer might accept that. If not, I think you could win on appeal with this. You must answer the visa officer's email with something, or he/she will refuse the visa.

 

[Erina]

It's a bad sign. However, the good thing is that the visa officer is asking this question and giving you a chance to explain your situation further (which is much better than an outright refusal). If you already explained why you can't get married (because you need your father's permission) it seems that the visa officer thinks this is not a good enough reason. As an adult, really you could get married somewhere else without your father's permission, no matter what Iranian law says. As well, if the PR visa is approved, you will then be living together in Canada with someone of the opposite sex (against Iranian law) or you'll marry your boyfriend (without your father's permission and thus against Iranian law) so the visa officer probably does not see why you couldn't take such a step now.

You will need to either offer more proof and explanation of why you can't get married, or do what the visa officer suggests and get married somewhere else. If you offer more proof and explanation, the visa officer might accept that. If not, I think you could win on appeal with this. You must answer the visa officer's email with something, or he/she will refuse the visa.

Oh really? So you think the chances of an approval are quite low? I have reasons why we cannot get married while my father disagrees. There are many family and financial facts involved upon our marriage. I don't understand it. They never ask homosexual couples who are not allowed to marry in their own country to go to another country to get married... I'm very upset... Can't really stand a refusal........

 

[canadianwoman]

Oh really? So you think the chances of an approval are quite low? I have reasons why we cannot get married while my father disagrees. There are many family and financial facts involved upon our marriage. I don't understand it. They never ask homosexual couples who are not allowed to marry in their own country to go to another country to get married...

This is why I think you might win on appeal. They don't usually require people to marry somewhere else if they can't in their own country. Still, it you did it would help your case, as conjugal is difficult to prove.
I think the problem is just that the visa officer does not see any legal reason why you can't marry. Of course to the individuals involved, family consent and financial matters might be very important, but CIC is less concerned with things like that. For example, choosing to not live together because one partner would have to give up a job or quit school is not a good reason according to CIC; to the average person, however, these would seem like good reasons.

I would send a letter with any proof you can get, stating your reasons for not marrying. Try to expand on the reasons you have already mentioned in your application. It may persuade the visa officer.

 

[Güzelyol]

Oh really? So you think the chances of an approval are quite low? I have reasons why we cannot get married while my father disagrees. There are many family and financial facts involved upon our marriage. I don't understand it. They never ask homosexual couples who are not allowed to marry in their own country to go to another country to get married... I'm very upset... Can't really stand a refusal........

Why does your family need to know you will get married? You are a Canadian living in Ontario, right? Get all the needed documents from Canada (and Iran for your fiance), travel to Turkey, register at the marriage office in the municipality where your hotel is located, do the required medical tests, and bring two witnesses for the civilian wedding ceremony. As simple as that. The conjugal partnership route is for people having no other options, but in your case, the visa officer sees alternatives. This is exactly what they suggested to us when refusing a TRV to my fiance when we wanted to get married in Quebec; instead of fighting with them, we did as they suggested.

 

[Erina]

This is really unfair. If they expect conjugal partners to meet in another country that is on either side's own, then why would such category of sponsorship even exist? Same sex couples can also travel abroad to marry, as well as people of certain religions, like Muslims, who are not permitted to marry someone with a different religion. They all can travel to Europe or elsewhere and marry and apply as Spouses. If that's the case, Conjugal Partnership has NO MEANING whatsoever!!!

I would have get married if I could long before they asked me to do so! but I wasn't able to... I had been researching a lot about all these immigration laws and factors before applying and I always knew Conjugal is a challenge!!! But I don't get it! As a Canadian citizen, shouldn't I have the right to marry where I actually live? to marry under the regulations of Canada? That's just so unfair!!!

But thanks for your answers. I try my best to convince them that I'm still unable to marry him due to different factors. But really, I expected more understanding from their side....

 

[truesmile]

Then stand behind your position and "stick to your guns", so to speak . . . AND don't let them bully you into a scenario you're not really obliged to take. Just be aware as we have all seen here, "conjugal applications" seem to inherently have a LOW success rate - is all.

 

[Güzelyol]

This is really unfair. If they expect conjugal partners to meet in another country that is on either side's own, then why would such category of sponsorship even exist? Same sex couples can also travel abroad to marry, as well as people of certain religions, like Muslims, who are not permitted to marry someone with a different religion. They all can travel to Europe or elsewhere and marry and apply as Spouses. If that's the case, Conjugal Partnership has NO MEANING whatsoever!!!

I would have get married if I could long before they asked me to do so! but I wasn't able to... I had been researching a lot about all these immigration laws and factors before applying and I always knew Conjugal is a challenge!!! But I don't get it! As a Canadian citizen, shouldn't I have the right to marry where I actually live? to marry under the regulations of Canada? That's just so unfair!!!

But thanks for your answers. I try my best to convince them that I'm still unable to marry him due to different factors. But really, I expected more understanding from their side....

Of my whole life, I never wanted to get married, but after having read about conjugal partnership, I knew we would never be able to make an immigration officer to believe that getting married was impossible. In addition to that, living in Turkey for a full year was not an option I could envisage. I forgot about frustration and did what Immigration Canada suggested and got married in Turkey. I am afraid not wanting to get married in a foreign country falls into the same category as not wanting to leave a job for living abroad for a full year.

Yes, as a Canadian citizen, you have the right to marry where you actually live. The problem is that your fiance doesn't live in your country and is probably not able to get a TRV. Immigration Canada is not responsible for your choices, the same way they are not responsible for mine. I've chosen a difficult route; therefore, I accept that things are not always as I want them to be and try not to get too frustrated. I don't want to fight with Immigration Canada, I want to live with the one I love.

Being married under the Turkish law (or any other country) is not a bar from getting married under the regulations of Canada in the future.

And just to make things clear: a Muslim man can marry a Jew or Christian woman, but a Muslim women can only marry a Muslim man. My husband is Muslim, I am not.

 

[Erina]

But such Law exists: Conjugal Partner Sponsorship. Right? and it's for people who cannot live together nor can they marry. Not buy selection, but due to rules and law, and restrictions. And that applies to us. Also you cannot live with an opposite sex outside of marriage in Iran. You may, but at your own risk. So no way of being together. I don't mind marriage AT ALL. It's just a piece of paper, right? but there's no way of doing it. I think my problem is I never cleared it in my documents. Like I didn't mention what would have happened if we married, so it might be a misunderstanding from Ankara and that's why they need further info?

Well I just brought Muslims as an example. Neither my partner nor me are Muslims anyways.

 

[Güzelyol]

But such Law exists: Conjugal Partner Sponsorship. Right? and it's for people who cannot live together nor can they marry. Not buy selection, but due to rules and law, and restrictions. And that applies to us. Also you cannot live with an opposite sex outside of marriage in Iran. You may, but at your own risk. So no way of being together. I don't mind marriage AT ALL. It's just a piece of paper, right? but there's no way of doing it. I think my problem is I never cleared it in my documents. Like I didn't mention what would have happened if we married, so it might be a misunderstanding from Ankara and that's why they need further info?

Well I just brought Muslims as an example. Neither my partner nor me are Muslims anyways.

That's why the officer asked you if you considered about getting married out of Iran, in Turkey for example. It might not be possible in Iran, but it is in at least one country where you can both travel. You have another option you didn't consider and this officer wanted to let you know about it.

Marriage is more than just a piece of paper, it is a contract between two individuals. In the eyes of Immigration Canada, there is no better way of showing how serious your relationship is, as long as the marriage is proven to be genuine. By being married, you are engaged before the law, you are responsible for each other, you have obligations, and more.

 

[BCgirl2012]

Erina, I understand your frustration. Being away from your partner is very difficult on its own and the process certainly doesn't make it easier.

But consider this, the laws might be unfair. However, at the end of the day, the fist thing you need to make sure is that your partner comes to live with you. Of course, if you consider something unfair you can strive for a change, but that's a separate issue.

Conjugal is extremely difficult to prove, and unfortunately, I don't think the VO will accept financial and family burdens as viable legal obstacles. I'm not sure if the same-sex partners aren't asked the same question, actually, unless traveling abroad to get married is absolutely not possible, or they can't be married for their own safety, etc. For conjugal, you have two things to prove: 1) The relationship is genuine 2) Why marriage or common-law are not possible. It's the second item which creates the complication for conjugal normally.

I'm gonna suggest that you consult with an experienced lawyer who specializes in conjugal. Ask for their opinion. If with all the evidence you are proposing the lawyers still suggest that it's too risky, you can plan to get married, if this is an option for you.

I wish you and your partner all the best. I hope you can tackle this issue smoothly. Keep us posted.

 

[Erina]

That's why the officer asked you if you considered about getting married out of Iran, in Turkey for example. It might not be possible in Iran, but it is in at least one country where you can both travel. You have another option you didn't consider and this officer wanted to let you know about it.

Marriage is more than just a piece of paper, it is a contract between two individuals. In the eyes of Immigration Canada, there is no better way of showing how serious your relationship is, as long as the marriage is proven to be genuine. By being married, you are engaged before the law, you are responsible for each other, you have obligations, and more.

I don't really know now, I need to get my thoughts together for an action to take.

 

[Erina]

Erina, I understand your frustration. Being away from your partner is very difficult on its own and the process certainly doesn't make it easier.

But consider this, the laws might be unfair. However, at the end of the day, the fist thing you need to make sure is that your partner comes to live with you. Of course, if you consider something unfair you can strive for a change, but that's a separate issue.

Conjugal is extremely difficult to prove, and unfortunately, I don't think the VO will accept financial and family burdens as viable legal obstacles. I'm not sure if the same-sex partners aren't asked the same question, actually, unless traveling abroad to get married is absolutely not possible, or they can't be married for their own safety, etc. For conjugal, you have two things to prove: 1) The relationship is genuine 2) Why marriage or common-law are not possible. It's the second item which creates the complication for conjugal normally.

I'm gonna suggest that you consult with an experienced lawyer who specializes in conjugal. Ask for their opinion. If with all the evidence you are proposing the lawyers still suggest that it's too risky, you can plan to get married, if this is an option for you.

I wish you and your partner all the best. I hope you can tackle this issue smoothly. Keep us posted.

Thank you. I actually have a lawyer already, and well, he's telling me writing to them and explaining every aspect in detail would solve the problem. But I don't really who to trust... Do you think if my explanations wouldn't catch their attention, will they refuse the case right after, or they might send a letter giving a chance? On most cases I have seen, the officer sends out a letter indication that "I'm not satisfied with the proofs, etc, etc, thus I'm giving you a last opportunity, etc, etc...". The officer who e-mailed us didn't state such thing. He just simply asked this question, and nothing else. What's your thoughts?