Conjugal Sponsorship...help?!

[brk3]

Hey,
So i just spend a good deal of time reading the posts in relation to conjugal sponsorship, but i still have some unanswered questions. please excuse the long post...i will try to keep it short.
So here is my deal:
I have been dating my boyfriend for 20 months. I am Canadian and 29 and he is Turkish and 27. He was here studying English. We were together in Canada for 9 months, 4 of which we lived together. The program he was studying allowed him to study and work. However, his work permit was denied. The school hired a lawyer to appeal the decision because it was unfair. But he had already been waiting 4 months for the first permit, which was denied, and having the financial ability to survive for another 4-6 would be pretty hard. At the same time he was being summoned to the army. Turkey has mandatory military service. So, after 2 months of waiting to hear about the second work permit he returned to Turkey. this was mid july 2008. In october, as fate would have it, he recieved his work permit. He could not use this because he was already signed up to start the army in December. He finished the army late may 2009 and i went to Turkey in June of 2009 to be with him.
In every respect he is my partner and the person i wish to be with for the rest of my life. Neither of us believe in getting married. We have made commitments to each other and for us this is enough!
It is difficult for him to come to Canada now because turkey is NOT an exempt visa country. The Can Embassy in Turkey must see that he WILL return to his country. As he is 27, finished uni and finished the army...they will 99% sure deny a tourist visa because they will think he will not return (especially if we mention that his coming to canada would be to see his girlfriend). So in this way...it is difficult!
I can legally live in Turkey, but this would be difficult. First of all i dont speak Turkish. My bf and i communicate in English, which he speaks very well...but everyone speaks Turkish in Turkey! It would take a few years for me to learn the language! Second, turkey has issues with the PKK. There are still acts of terrorism, if you want to call it that, occurring. Last year 17 people were killed when 2 bombs went off in a busy area of istanbul. Turkey also borders Iraq and constantly deals with issues surrounding the Kurds. This does result in open warfare on occasion (though this has not really happened since 2007). ON top of safety, turkey has extreme censorship. I am in the communications field and this would obviously impede my ability to do my job, or at least the conditions would be very different from Canada.
We want to apply for conjugal sponsorship under the above grounds. We would have applied for commonlaw, but he had to return to TUrkey because of the army and the visa denial. He will have too much trouble coming here now and due to the above mentioned reasons living in Turkey is not a good idea for the 2 of us.
I understand we need to prove we cant get married and we cant live together. Well those are my reasons! Most importantly, however, we have a solid relationship! I have met all his family and he has met all of mine. It just kills me to be away from him!
Oh, also i am a university student (worked for 7 years then decided to go back to school last year). I can not leave Canada for at least 1 year so i can finish my studies. Dont know if this would further help our case or impede it as i have no income at the moment.
Help would be awesome! I have spoken to friends who have actually recieved PR through this category. The girl was from Canada and the guy was from England. They have had friends who did the same. They didnt have any kids together. All they proved was the validity of their relationship. So there are people who get accepted under this category (i found so much neg. info thats why i add this).
Thanks so much and looking forward to recieving some feedback!

 

[Leon]

You can try it but the odds of getting refused are higher. So you can't live together but you could get married. If you don't believe in marriage, then why do you care if you do or if you don't? It's just a piece of paper, right? A piece of paper that can make your application much easier.

There are people who have succeeded with conjugal applications but many also get denied. Mostly they are for people who for some reason can't get married. You can get married, you just don't want to. That may not be what the visa officer is looking for in a committed relationship.

 

[brk3]

Hey, thanks for the reply!
I get what you are saying. But one of the joys of being canadian is being able to have my own beliefs and views. An immigration officer can not make the argument you made (at least i dont think they can) as that would be infringing on my beliefs. What i mean is, he can not tell me that my relationship would be more REAL just because i would sign a piece of paper or that a piece of paper makes our relationship more serious! There are loads of people in Canada signing the dotted lne but having no relationship whatsoever and i believe canada immigration is aware of this. I hope that they are looking for legitamite relationships because these are hard to fake...signing a piece of paper is just that...having a partnership is so much more...at least for me!
Other than the issue of marriage, do you think my case sounds like it has a shot?
Thanks again!

 

[Leon]

Everybody has a shot. Nobody will tell you that you can't apply and nobody can tell you the likelyhood of being accepted. You just have to do your best. Include proof of the time you lived together and proof of your relationship such as emails, photos etc. Send it in. Then wait and see. Good luck

By the way, there are not many limits to what visa officers seem to be able to say to people. There was one couple of here who were denied. They had an interview and the woman was pregnant and the visa officer actually suggested that it wasn't the husbands baby.

 

[brk3]

Thanks!
I guess that is the scariest part about all of this! Everything is up to one visa officer. From what i have been told, immigration officers can INTERPRET the law. This means IO Mr. A sees a law this way but Mr B sees it that way. If your case lands in the hand of Mr A you wont get your visa but if it lands in the hands of Mr B you will. Same law, different interpretation. If immigration law was more black and white and less like the bible (mean so subjective) maybe this wouldnt be a problem...but nothing is clear.
I said to my friend the other day: "where is the class of immigration for me? where is the class for people who have a real relationship and want to spend their lives together living and growing? where is the class with no hitch or gimmick...?
I know immigration canada has a tough job, but to keep out the 5% of bad they hurt and inconvenience the 95% of good and honest. Its like with this new mexican tourist visa...but that is another issue.
I guess you are like everyone else, completely on the fence with my situation. This immigration class is tricky, because of an IO wants to deny you....there is always a way. If its not 'why dont you marry' it could be 'why dont you live in another country together? or why dont you apply with this kind of visa" or i dont believe you relationship is real! or you dont have enough money! So really, all anyone on the forum can do is apply! 50% of you getting PR is going to rely on the IO...so i guess fill out your application, dot your t's, cross your i's and most importantly...cross your fingers!

 

[RobsLuv]

Yes, there are people who are approved in this category - some because they are able to convince the immigration officer assessing their application that they are against marriage. But this is really officer discretion at work - an officer who is sympathetic to a couple's right not to marry will be more willing to make such a decision, one who isn't can find reasons why that's not good enough and tell you to marry and then apply again. The bottom line is that the conjugal partner qualification guidelines in the manuals say that the couple must be unable to marry or live together for long enough to establish a common-law relationship because of immigration barriers AND fear of persecution due to their relationship. That's a pretty narrowly defined edict.

The other thing you need to consider is that your application will be assessed in Ankara - by locals there who work for CIC. So there could be cultural influences that might affect the assessment of an officer if, for example, simply choosing not to marry is not a cultural "norm". That's a expected freedom in North America - but it might not be acceptable in Turkey. I'm not saying it is or isn't - because I don't know - but when you push limits, sometimes you're at a big disadvantage and nobody wants to go into this process at a disadvantage. Everything you can do to put yourselves in the strongest possible position is effort worth investing.

So - not wanting to marry (rather than not being able to marry) puts you at a real disadvantage, IMHO. Also, the fact that you can go there and stay long enough to establish a common-law relationship (although nobody would ever suggest that you do it!) will also work against you - unless, of course, living together without benefit of marriage is not looked upon favourably in that country. THEN you can start saying that you fear persecution if you go there to live with him, and if he's not allowed to come to Canada to live with or marry you - you have an immigration barrier also!

So, to make this work, I think you have to pay more attention to how things are there - as opposed to what you'd normally expect here. You might need to get creative - or re-think your position on marriage - in order to make this work. Remember, the important thing is not a piece of paper between you - it's your relationship and if the piece of paper is what's needed to facilitate your being together, then it's a means to an end. In and of itself it - having it or not - it does not have the power to change who the two of you are together. By the simple fact that you fell in love with someone from another country, you put yourself in a different "category" as far as your freedoms to do as you see fit with that relationship. When a government agency can tell you whether or not you're allowed to have a life together, sometimes you have to make some compromises to put yourself in the strong position and minimize their influence on your life. To me it's kinda the same thing as making the choice not to subject yourself to the hazards of living for a year in Turkey - which would get your common-law qualification, but at what cost? If it's a toss up between that and a marriage licence, which is the greater risk overall???

 

[brk3]

Robsluv thanks a lot! You gave me a different perspective and i really appreciate it. So now im going to ask you a few more questions...sorry!
First of all, i thought the first stage of this process was done in Canada. I thought they decide in Canada if i am a suitable sponsor. Are you saying that if i am approved as a sponsor (which includes CIC agreeing to the validity of our relationship and our right to apply under the conjugal class) that they will send this application to Ankara? So in Ankara my bf will not only be applying for PR but also WE will be applying again for the conjugal class?
The thing about living in Turkey is that we would probably not be able to live together. It is a more conservative country and people generally move in together after marriage! But to me Turkey also seems like a country that would state at the govt level that people can live together whenever they chose (of course being of legal age). But the reality is, in society you are looked at as 'sinners' for lack of better words. People would look down on you...as would family! I went there for 1 month and part of that time i stayed with my bf at his house with his mom. I think this was a pretty big deal!!! But if i were to move there, i dont think i we would be able to live together. So there is no way to get commonlaw like this. How would i prove this? How could i make both CIC here and in Ankara understand this?
I am also wondering if the fact that i dont speak the language and that i am going to have trouble getting job would be a factor. I mean, if i went there...i would have to live on my own...support myself...in a country where the only job i can probably get is an English teacher and they make around $1200 per month (in a city where the prices are similar to Canada...it blows my mind). not to mention i am getting older and its time to start a career for me here in Canada...i would be wasting time out there!
Does CIC think that you need to sacrafice your life for 2-5 years in order to prove you have a REAL relationship? I just think this is bogus. My bf and i have the chance to live in Canada where our relationship is accepted, where we can live together, where both him and i can find great jobs, where we both speak English. I feel like have choice A and choice B in front of me. Choice A is hard and choice B is better. But i feel my own govt is going to force me to make the hard choice. I thought living in Canada was better than that. Do you know what i mean?
Bottom line...even if i go to turkey we cant live together and we dont believe in getting married (which Turkish authorities would absolutely not recognize) so there is no hope for him to come here! So in the end i feel that Canada is willing to sacrafice and lose one of their citizens (tax paying might i mention) because they dont recognize my relationship. I know i am being a bit mellow dramatic...but you know what i mean, right?
I guess there are just so many reasons why it is difficult for us to be together that i dont really know where to begin. I dont want to send an application that is overpowering with information on why we deserve to apply under conjugal class. I want to send the right information...the information that both countries will respect and understand! I am just having a hard time figuring out what that is. If there were an easier way...if he could apply under PNP or Skilled worker...we would totally do it! But he doesnt have the points and his job is Trade so there are no NOC for this because we have a lot of these workers!
You have given me some things to think about. I guess i need to find a way to show that living to together in Turkey is socially unacceptable. How am i going to do this?
Do you think i also need to show why he cant come here? In turkey he can apply for a tourist visa, but like i think i mentioned in my first post...im so sure it will get denied. Do you think telling CIC that i dont think he can even get a tourist visa is a good way to show why he cant come here (as opposed to him have an actual visa denial)? Do you think that mentioning the longest he could have that tourist visa would be 4-5 months would also help? If we are to live together for 1 year to qualify for common law...5 months tourist visa wont work. Is it also wrong to mention that even if he could live in Canada for 1 year on a tourist visa (which i know he cant) that this is unreasonable because he needs to work, earn money, volunteer...something!?
Just a few more questions. I would really appreciate a response. You seem to be quite level headed and i think i am just too emotional over all these barriers to think straight anymore.
Once again...thanks!

 

[Leon]

I know a Canadian girl with a Turkish boyfriend (or husband, not sure if they ever married) and she went to Turkey for a year and worked as an English teacher. Who exactly would stop you from living together in Turkey? Turkey is fairly progressive compared to many other countries a bit further east. They are trying to get into the EU after all.

If you went the route of your boyfriend coming to stay with you, if he got a visa, he would be able to stay for 6 months and he could apply to extend this visa for another 6. He would not be able to work as a visitor though. Getting a work permit might not be easy but if you can help finding him a job, it's worth a try. If he gets a work permit, he could come to Canada for 2 years. Better that they do not know at that point that he has a Canadian girlfriend or they may not approve him for a temporary visa.

The part of the application that is processed in Canada is not dealing with your relationship, it's just to approve sponsor. They would look at the things that might exclude you from sponsoring such as criminal record, having been on welfare etc. The visa office in Turkey deals with the relationship bit. So it would be nice if Canada just took everybodys word for that they were in a relationshipship but in reality, if they did, it would be horribly abused and people are already trying that on for size so that is why visa offices are suspect of relationships, because many of them are just for PR.

 

[Boncuk]

Ok I thought I would put my two cents in, just partly because I am a Turkish Canadian and the extreme way that Turkey was being described just seems a little unreal and extreme in my opinion. I have lived there for many years and I found it very liberal especially among the youth of the country.. It is not as backwards as you described.. I married an Egyptian and this is a VERY conservative country and this country would definitely NOT allow an unmarried couple to live in "Sin" Is it really that big a deal to have a civil marriage so that CIC would be satisfied that you are genuine then going through all these hoops and length of time for what? All it is .. is a piece of paper.. I knew many couples one foreign one turkish living together and working no problems. All they would say is they were engaged.. its not a big deal.. PKK etc is not that big a threat.. all in all it is a very decent country. Yes its expensive as they deal with prices towards the euro.. but anyway I digress as I dont agree with all that was being generalised about Turkey.. The main point is TRY to get a tourist visa and GET denied.. this shows you made and effort and not just assumed that he wont get it. If you really want to go the common law route then I suggest depending on where you live he contacts the Turkish association and perhaps they could suggest any local turks looking to hire. I don't know what his specialty is etc but it could work. Another thing any way you look at it right now you are just a girlfriend in the eyes of the CIC.. You are not even common law .. the barriers that you have stated are not really barriers and I'm sure they have seen many couples who make sacrifices to be together.. So if your application came along.. justifying it in these terms would just end up in a refusal. I have also known a few couples in similar situations with the belief that they would never marry and it was "unfair" to feel the pressure from CIC to get married to be seen as genuine.. in last they caved and did get married because being together was more important then going through possibly years of stress and aggravation trying to prove themselves. Lastly, I am originally from Toronto, and I live in Egypt right now but I have a very large Turkish network there and if he does need support I can give him the numbers and contacts. I'm sorry if I seem harsh but really it is hard to see so much negativity of ones own country.. be it Canada or Turkey in my case. Also the extreme censorship was laughable to me when you open every newspaper in Turkey and its full of n*ked girls and propaganda. And Iraq is far from the European side and I hardly doubt you would be living in the mountains. I'm sorry but I'm trying to show you that the barriers you are looking at are not very concrete in the eyes of most aware of the situation there. If you need any help or advice please feel free to ask.. and I hope I didn't offend you but I'm trying to give it to you straight! Hosca kal!

 

[mitamata]

Something to read, if you haven't yet: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op02-eng.pdf
The operating manual for immigration officers. The conjugal partner stuff starts on page 32 or so.

Personally, I would recommend just getting married and making your life a whole lot easier. If you decide to do a conjugal application, don't forget you still have to prove you have a conjugal relationship and it has lasted for at least 1 year. A conjugal relationship is more than just "we're dating". You have to prove that you have comined your affairs as much as you could.

Here's a little quote from the link above:

Because of Supreme Court decisions, the choice not to marry is a constitutionally protected
choice. Thus, CIC cannot require couples to marry in order to immigrate. However, if they are not
married, they must be common-law partners. There is NO provision for fiancé(e)s or “intended
common-law partners” in IRPA. If a Canadian and a foreign national can get married or can live
together and establish a common-law relationship, this is what they are expected to have done
before they submit sponsorship and immigration applications.

And some more:

The conjugal-partner applicant should explain why they have not been able to live continuously
with their sponsor for at least one year. In most cases, there will be an immigration impediment to
continuous cohabitation (e.g., inability to obtain long-stay visas for one another’s country). Noncohabitation
for purely personal or economic reasons (i.e., did not want to give up a job or studies)
does not normally qualify as a sufficient impediment, but should be assessed on a case-by-case
basis. Applicants should be able to provide evidence that they have seriously considered living
together as common-law partners. For example, they might have explored options for living
together in one another’s country, such as work or study permits, how their occupational skills and
qualifications would be recognized in their partner’s country, visitor visas, long-term visitor status,
etc.

.....

Although the intention of the conjugal-partner category is to accommodate those few Canadians
with foreign partners who can neither marry nor live together, inability to marry cannot be an
absolute requirement, since this could have the effect of “forcing” those couples to marry who may
have chosen not to do so. Persons who have established and maintained a conjugal relationship
for one year and who do not intend to marry might be conjugal partners if they have been unable
to cohabit because of an immigration impediment or other serious barrier. The key to determining
whether an individual is a conjugal partner is whether they are in a conjugal relationship with their
sponsor and whether there is a compelling barrier to continuous cohabitation.

Now, technically, from what it says in there, you could get approved. But a lot depends on how the IO understands what's written in there. Just reading the first quote I posted, any IO can easily say "oh, they could live together, but she didn't want to move to Turkey, obviously not conjugal parners, denied!" Or you might find one that is more lenient. Personally, I think the uncertainty here is too great. It would be far more stress free to just get married (if you don't believe in marriage, what difference does it make if you do it anyway?) and sponsor him as your spouse.

 

[brk3]

Thanks all for the responses!
Boncuk i guess i owe you a bit of an explanation. Sorry to seem like i was dragging Turkey through the mud...im trying to find reasons that i cant live there and how it would be uncomfortable. I actually did a simple search on some newspaper databases and what i found were articles about human rights (pertaining particularly to one man who beat his wife), many about bombings and articles about cencorship (big one being the govt stopping some editor/owner of a science magazine from producing a cover with darwin or something like this and how a creationist approach was strongly favored with the new govt in the school system, ect, ect).

I think Turkey is trying and is growing. I had a good time there. All of the couples i met had never lived with their husbands before they got married and i met some who were currently dating their bfs and so desperately wanted to move in together but couldnt. These were people living in Ankara...educated...progressive. They are dealing with the old culture and new culture...its common in so many countries! So from this first hand experience, i could see that living with my bf would not be socially acceptable (especially as i dont believe his family would be in favor of this either). By making this statement please dont feel offense. It is just a different value system and culture. But it is something i am not used to!

I dont expect to be on the border of Iraq but i dont have to worry about anything close to this type of threat here in Canada. Please understand me...there are acts of violence and war that occasionally occur in Turkey...this does not happen in Canada. With conjugal class i am supposed to prove why my bf and i can not live together in Turkey...i think this is a fairly good reason. I actually spoke to CIC about it, and the officer i talked to thought it could be a good reason!

I contacted the Turkish organizations 2 weeks ago...unfortunately no real help. They basically told me to marry him or forget it! I have read all the manuals and forms...still confused!

I guess what will not allow me to let this go is that i have a good friend from England who received his PR in Canada through this class! His gf was canadian. They never lived together, met in england and had probably dated for about 4 or 5 years (2 of those years by distance). He had also worked in canada for a few years. All they had to prove was there relationship was a real relationship. So...why can i not do the same? Are there different rules for different countries? He advised me to apply under this class. He knows my situation and he didnt see any reason why we should be refused. He had friends who also did the same..all getting accepted. This same guy has now married his gf. But everyone on the forums are very hesistant to recommend anyone to do this. So i cant figure out why i am getting conflicting info. CIC even told me that not believing in marriage was a valid reason!

So...i am still at a loss...i really dont know what to do? He can not come here for 1 year and not work and not do anything...that would drive anyone insane not to mention who has the money for that? I know how long it takes to get a work permit! It takes months and months...you never really know! And this is IF you can find someone to hire you...by the time he could find someone to hire him and recieve this work permit...it will have been over a year and we would be applying for common law.

I am not going to get married to prove i am in love...to me that is crazy! If an IO wants to say "get married to prove your relationship...its just a piece of paper" then i can say the same "if its just a peice of paper...i guess it doesnt have any meaning so why does it matter?" Its a circular argument...it can just go on like that!

Thanks so much for your help guys! I think i have to suck it up and get a lawyer. Hopefully he/she can set me straight!

 

[Leon]

(big one being the govt stopping some editor/owner of a science magazine from producing a cover with darwin or something like this and how a creationist approach was strongly favored with the new govt in the school system, ect, ect).

Sounds like some parts of the US

If an IO wants to say "get married to prove your relationship...its just a piece of paper" then i can say the same "if its just a peice of paper...i guess it doesnt have any meaning so why does it matter?" Its a circular argument...it can just go on like that!

The difference is that the IO has the power and you don't. It's like arguing with the bouncer at a club whether you are properly dressed or not. At the end of the day, the bouncer has the power to let you in or not. His opinion is the one that counts.

As for your friend in the UK, they may have gotten lucky with their IO. If you are really so opposed to getting married, you can certainly try the conjugal approach. If you get denied, you can always re-think your strategy and find a way to live together for a year or bite the bullet and get married. Your life, your choice, your gamble.