As a PR holder and previous study permit holder, is it 2 years in 3 or 3 years in 5 to apply for citizenship?

[Keyjoe23]

Hi there,

So quick background history for me:

From 2015 to November 2019 I was on Study Permit and Work Permit (international student).

Got PR November 2019.


The thing is, I travelled outside the country from September 2020 to July 2021 and I was working remotely from abroad in a company in Canada (Was paying taxes in Canada).

My questions are:-

1) Is my stay outside Canada counted? Because I saw on the website that it says my days would still be counted if I was working for Canadian company during my outside stay, it's not clear if the company itself should be Canadian or it could be American but I was hired in the Canadian branch.

2) Some people are telling me that since I was a student on a valid study permit and work permit from 2015 to 2019, that means I have now 1 year of presence and hence I need to stay 2 years in 3 from November 2019 to apply for citizenship. I thought it should be 2 years in 5?


3) How bad did my stay outside Canada from September 2020 to July 2021 affect my plan to apply for citizenship? And also, how many days I can stay outside Canada from now to still be eligible?


Note: The calculator on the IRCC website gives me error and I'm not able to get answers for my questions.

 

[rajkamalmohanram]

Hi there,

So quick background history for me:

From 2015 to November 2019 I was on Study Permit and Work Permit (international student).

Got PR November 2019.


The thing is, I travelled outside the country from September 2020 to July 2021 and I was working remotely from abroad in a company in Canada (Was paying taxes in Canada).

My questions are:-

1) Is my stay outside Canada counted? Because I saw on the website that it says my days would still be counted if I was working for Canadian company during my outside stay, it's not clear if the company itself should be Canadian or it could be American but I was hired in the Canadian branch.

Nope, you can't count these days towards your "Physical Presence" requirement for Citizenship. However, you may be able to count these days towards your PR residency obligations if you were working for a Canadian business on a full-time basis.

2) Some people are telling me that since I was a student on a valid study permit and work permit from 2015 to 2019, that means I have now 1 year of presence and hence I need to stay 2 years in 3 from November 2019 to apply for citizenship. I thought it should be 2 years in 5?

The requirements are pretty clear. You'll have to be physically present in Canada for 3 out of 5 years to be eligible to apply for citizenship. You are confusing your PR residency obligations (2/5 years) with the physical presence requirement for Citizenship (3/5 years).

Every day you spent as a temporary resident (physically present in Canada) counts as half a day (and you can only accumulate a maximum of 365 days of physical presence as a temporary resident towards physical presence requirement for Citizenship).

Every day you were physically present in Canada as a PR counts as 1 day. So, since you had more than 2 years of physical presence as a temporary resident in Canada within the last 5 years, you have the equivalent of 1 year physical presence in Canada. You also have 9 months of physical presence as a PR in Canada. You have a grand total of 1 year and 9 months of physical presence. You will need 1 year and 3 months more of physical presence in Canada before you are eligible to apply for citizenship.

If you return to Canada right away and never leave, you can apply for citizenship in October/November 2022.


3) How bad did my stay outside Canada from September 2020 to July 2021 affect my plan to apply for citizenship? And also, how many days I can stay outside Canada from now to still be eligible?

It has already set you back by 10 months. If you continue to stay outside Canada, the delay will keep growing. Depending on when you come back to Canada, you will have to spend a minimum time of 1 year and 3 months before you will be eligible for Citizenship.


Note: The calculator on the IRCC website gives me error and I'm not able to get answers for my questions.

What error are you seeing on the screen? You should be able to calculate the physical presence you have and by changing the eligibility period around, you should be able to get an estimate of when you will be eligible for citizenship.

https://eservices.cic.gc.ca/rescalc/resCalcStartNew.do

 

[wstrn24]

1. No, it doesn't count.
2. Before you became PR, each day that you stayed in Canada can be counted as half day up to 1 year.
3. You will need to meet the 3 years minimal requirement.

The IRCC's website is very clear. I would suggest you to revisit.

 

[Keyjoe23]

Thanks a lot for the detailed info.

So now I have 1 year and 9 months of stay in Canada, I need to stay 1 year and 3 months to qualify for citizenship, but that's always if I apply before November 2024?


In other words, when does the year I have accumulated when I was studying and working on a permit expire/gets reset?


Also when you say they may count towards my residency obligations, means that I would be able to renew the PR without physically staying in Canada? i.e I have stayed 1 year in Canada on PR and spent 1 year outside Canada on PR but was working full time and paying taxes in Canada.

In other words, "Canadian business" mentioned here https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10 means that the company needs to be Canadian or the fact that I work for a company in Canada but the company in a US company i.e Microsoft

Thanks

 

[scylla]

Thanks a lot for the detailed info.

So now I have 1 year and 9 months of stay in Canada, I need to stay 1 year and 3 months to qualify for citizenship, but that's always if I apply before November 2024?


In other words, when does the year I have accumulated when I was studying and working on a permit expire/gets reset?


Also when you say they may count towards my residency obligations, means that I would be able to renew the PR without physically staying in Canada? i.e I have stayed 1 year in Canada on PR and spent 1 year outside Canada on PR but was working full time and paying taxes in Canada.

In other words, "Canadian business" mentioned here https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10 means that the company needs to be Canadian or the fact that I work for a company in Canada but the company in a US company i.e Microsoft

Thanks

You'll start losing the 1 year you accumulated pre-PR in Nov 2022. You'll lose the full year in Nov 2024.

Working for a Canadian company outside of Canada can only count towards PR RO. It doesn't count towards citizenship.

 

[Keyjoe23]

You'll start losing the 1 year you accumulated pre-PR in Nov 2022. You'll lose the full year in Nov 2024.

Working for a Canadian company outside of Canada can only count towards PR RO. It doesn't count towards citizenship.

Why I would lose the full year in 2024? From November 2022 to 2024 thats 2 years no? Or they count it as a half day still when I lose?

Also why 2022?

Thanks

 

[scylla]

Why I would lose the full year in 2024? From November 2022 to 2024 thats 2 years no? Or they count it as a half day still when I lose?

Also why 2022?

Thanks

At the time you apply, you can only use residency you completed within the previous five years. Anything earlier than five years doesn't count.

Additionally, days before you became a PR only count as half days towards citizenship. This means that if you want to be able to claim 1 year credit pre-PR towards citizenship, you must have 2 pre-PR years that fall within the five year period.

You got PR in November 2019. That means if you apply for citizenship in November 2024, your pre-PR time will no longer fall within the previous five years and you will not be able to use any pre-PR time towards citizenship.

If you apply for citizenship in November 2023, then only one year of pre-PR time can be counted towards citizenship (everything else will fall outside of the five year period). Additionally, pre-PR time is only counted as half days. So you'll be able to claim only half a year of pre-PR residency towards PR if you apply Nov 2023.

For the same reason, starting sometime in Nov 2022, you'll start losing days of pre-PR time since they will no longer fall within the 5 year period.

Use the IRCC calculator to make sure you don't mess up your calculations.

 

[dpenabill]

. . . I travelled outside the country from September 2020 to July 2021 and I was working remotely from abroad in a company in Canada (Was paying taxes in Canada) . . .
1) Is my stay outside Canada counted? Because I saw on the website that it says my days would still be counted if I was working for Canadian company during my outside stay, it's not clear if the company itself should be Canadian or it could be American but I was hired in the Canadian branch.

As others have said, only days actually physically present IN Canada count toward meeting the citizenship presence requirement. So NO, those days will not count in a citizenship application.

BUT CAUTION: It does not appear these days would count toward meeting your PR Residency Obligation either.

At this juncture it does not appear you are anywhere near approaching a RO compliance issue, and especially so if you are now located in Canada again, so this should not be an issue.

But given some other comments suggesting that time might count toward RO compliance, it needs to be made clear that working remotely abroad for a Canadian business does NOT qualify for RO credit . . . and it warrants further emphasizing that qualifying for this credit requires more than being employed by a Canadian business. There is extensive discussion of this credit in the part of this forum dealing with PR Obligations. Paying taxes in Canada is, for the most part, not relevant.

 

[Keyjoe23]

As others have said, only days actually physically present IN Canada count toward meeting the citizenship presence requirement. So NO, those days will not count in a citizenship application.

BUT CAUTION: It does not appear these days would count toward meeting your PR Residency Obligation either.

At this juncture it does not appear you are anywhere near approaching a RO compliance issue, and especially so if you are now located in Canada again, so this should not be an issue.

But given some other comments suggesting that time might count toward RO compliance, it needs to be made clear that working remotely abroad for a Canadian business does NOT qualify for RO credit . . . and it warrants further emphasizing that qualifying for this credit requires more than being employed by a Canadian business. There is extensive discussion of this credit in the part of this forum dealing with PR Obligations. Paying taxes in Canada is, for the most part, not relevant.

Yeah this part is very confusion. "Working for a Canadian company". Does it mean a Canadian company abroad? Or Canadian company in Canada

 

[rajkamalmohanram]

But given some other comments suggesting that time might count toward RO compliance, it needs to be made clear that working remotely abroad for a Canadian business does NOT qualify for RO credit . . . and it warrants further emphasizing that qualifying for this credit requires more than being employed by a Canadian business. There is extensive discussion of this credit in the part of this forum dealing with PR Obligations. Paying taxes in Canada is, for the most part, not relevant.

Not sure why his full-time work for a Canadian Business outside Canada doesn't count towards his RO obligations?

This is what I see on the IRCC website :

It depends on what you do and who you travel with. Your time outside of Canada may count toward your permanent resident status if you meet 1 of these conditions:

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10

You work outside Canada
You need to work full-time for:

• a Canadian business or organization, OR
• the Canadian federal, provincial or territorial government

What does the above mean then? Does it mean working full-time as a locally engaged person for a Canadian business ?

It would be great if you could please clarify this for me, thanks.

 

[dpenabill]

Not sure why his full-time work for a Canadian Business outside Canada doesn't count towards his RO obligations?

This is what I see on the IRCC website :

It depends on what you do and who you travel with. Your time outside of Canada may count toward your permanent resident status if you meet 1 of these conditions:

https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?qnum=1466&top=10

You work outside Canada
You need to work full-time for:

• a Canadian business or organization, OR
• the Canadian federal, provincial or territorial government

What does the above mean then? Does it mean working full-time as a locally engaged person for a Canadian business ?

It would be great if you could please clarify this for me, thanks.

There is a lot more to qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit than being abroad while employed full time by a Canadian business.

Take note of two very important, and one might say loaded words in the IRCC information: "may" and "need" . . . time abroad "may" count . . . if you "need" to work . . .

Those words refer to the criteria employed, and how it is employed, to determine who is eligible for the credit. Spoiler alert: this is a rather narrowly interpreted and applied EXCEPTION.

Relative to the nature of the employment itself, in addition to being full time for a qualified Canadian business, the job must be a "Temporary Assignment" abroad, often further framed as a "temporary assignment to a position abroad." Thus, for example, working remotely will NOT come anywhere near close. These two words, "temporary" and "assignment," are also terms which, one might say, carry a lot of water.

As I noted, in the PR Obligations part of this forum there is extensive, in-depth discussion, including scores of links to official and unofficial but reliable sources, about the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit.

I am no expert but this is one issue for which I have done the homework, a huge amount of homework. I have sometimes said (exaggerating just a little) that if a PR needs the credit for time working abroad for a Canadian business, the PR probably does not qualify for the credit. Explaining this is complicated. See discussions in other part of the forum.

Here are some, just some of the sources regarding this issue cited in other topics:

The governing STATUTE is IRPA Subsection 28(2)(a)(iii) (Subsection 28(2)(a)(iv) is similar as to person a PR is accompanying abroad); see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-20

The applicable REGULATION is IRPA Regulation 61; see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-14.html#h-32

For relevant Operational Manuals see https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html and follow links for particular manuals. Operational Manuals relevant to working-abroad-credit include:

OP - 10 "Permanent Residency Status Determination," especially sections 6.5 (Employment outside of Canada) and 12 (Procedure: Guidelines for examining the residency obligation); this is mostly for visa offices processing PR Travel Document applications​

ENF - 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status," especially Section 7.4 "Employment outside Canada" which includes guidelines about suggested information and documentary evidence which is useful in determining if the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit is allowed.

ENF - 4 "Port of Entry Examinations," especially section 11.12 "Residency obligation for permanent residents"

ENF - 27 "Permanent Resident Card,"​

Key (and oft cited) Federal Court Decisions regarding this issue:

Decision by Justice Simon Noël in Bi v. Canada 2012 FC 293 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/fqtsz​

​

Decision by Justice Kane in Durve v. Canada [2015] 3 FCR 537, 2014 FC 874 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/g90xc​

​

Decision by Justice Richard Boivin in Canada v. Jiang, 2011 FC 349 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/flfrk​

​

Decision by Justice Shore in Baraily v. Canada 2014 FC 460 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/g6z62​

Key and Significant IAD decisions regarding this issue:

Kapoor v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 112319 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw8jt​

​

Belghiti v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2016 CanLII 54523 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/gt2g9​

​

Siek v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 79718 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/htnww​

​

He v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 118633 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwjnm​

​

Alkhen v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 107669 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw2jt​

​

Nagappan v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 117109 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwgqs​

​

Shen v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 56623 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/h5pqz​

ALSO SEE (may be some repeat of sources):

For Reliable Accounts of Actual Cases Re working-abroad-credit See The Following:

Federal Court decisions:
Bi v. Canada (CIC), 2012 FC 293 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/fqtsz
Durve v. Canada (CIC), 2011 FC 995 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/fmqvt
He -- Canada (CIC) v. He, 2018 FC 457 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/hrv9t
Jiang -- Canada (CIC) v. Jiang, 2011 FC 349 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/flfrk
Waraich v. Canada (CIC), 2018 FC 307 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/hrbft


IAD decisions:
Adeosun v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 79071 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/htn90
Alkhen v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 107669 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw2jt
Durve v. Canada (CIC), 2013 CanLII 44900 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/fxgkq
Faeli v. Canada (CIC), 2005 CanLII 56914 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/1rnd9
Falsafi v. Canada (CIC), 2012 CanLII 92972 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/fvr0p
Gencoglu v Canada (CIC), 2016 CanLII 97304 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/gx80k
He v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 118633 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwjnm
Imanzadeh v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 102055 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hvtkg
Janotta v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 41729 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hrzg5
Kanwal v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 107687 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw2kp
Okunbo v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 121460 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwmzs
Onianwah v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 117112 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwgq6
Shah v. Canada (CIC), 2011 CanLII 55976 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/fn1xt
Shen v Canada (CIC), 2017 CanLII 56623 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/h5pqz
Shoaee v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 72635 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/htbx7
Schroeder v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 54709 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hskn3
Tripathy v Canada (Pub Saf), 2015 CanLII 107860 (CA IRB) http://canlii.ca/t/h30s4
Wang v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 57545 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hsp86
Wei v Canada (Pub Saf.), 2016 CanLII 92583 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/gwpzn
Xin v Canada (CIC), 2018 CanLII 74069 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/htdrb
Zeng v. Canada (CIC), 2012 CanLII 12935 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/fqkw9
Zhou v Canada (Pub Saf.), 2018 CanLII 27228 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hrbbj

Note:

On one hand there is too much parsing of particular terms, tending to distort if not outright mislead the actual meaning and use of the term. On the other hand, many times the discussion about an issue can gloss over very important elements in how this or that term is employed. Always helps to read and understand terms in context, in both the source itself and in cross-referencing how it and other related terms are employed in other sources, and if available, in actual cases (which is why I turn so often to the Federal Court and IAD decisions).

It is sometimes problematic the way IRCC will employ some words in a way that almost conceals the key information. I can see how many might indeed see that help centre FAQ information and not recognize just how loaded the use of the word "may" is in that (note, after all, if one in a hundred will get the credit, the IRCC information would be accurate, a PR "may" get the credit; but that would be rather misleading).

IRCC is a big bureaucracy and does have some big problems in the way it does things. I understand why many get frustrated. Which does not mean I concur in a lot of the rant-noise in the forum; much of that is overblown, off the mark, or even total BS.

 

[rajkamalmohanram]

There is a lot more to qualifying for the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit than being abroad while employed full time by a Canadian business.

Take note of two very important, and one might say loaded words in the IRCC information: "may" and "need" . . . time abroad "may" count . . . if you "need" to work . . .

Those words refer to the criteria employed, and how it is employed, to determine who is eligible for the credit. Spoiler alert: this is a rather narrowly interpreted and applied EXCEPTION.

Relative to the nature of the employment itself, in addition to being full time for a qualified Canadian business, the job must be a "Temporary Assignment" abroad, often further framed as a "temporary assignment to a position abroad." Thus, for example, working remotely will NOT come anywhere near close. These two words, "temporary" and "assignment," are also terms which, one might say, carry a lot of water.

As I noted, in the PR Obligations part of this forum there is extensive, in-depth discussion, including scores of links to official and unofficial but reliable sources, about the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business credit.

I am no expert but this is one issue for which I have done the homework, a huge amount of homework. I have sometimes said (exaggerating just a little) that if a PR needs the credit for time working abroad for a Canadian business, the PR probably does not qualify for the credit. Explaining this is complicated. See discussions in other part of the forum.

Here are some, just some of the sources regarding this issue cited in other topics:

The governing STATUTE is IRPA Subsection 28(2)(a)(iii) (Subsection 28(2)(a)(iv) is similar as to person a PR is accompanying abroad); see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/page-7.html#h-20

The applicable REGULATION is IRPA Regulation 61; see https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-14.html#h-32

For relevant Operational Manuals see https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals.html and follow links for particular manuals. Operational Manuals relevant to working-abroad-credit include:

OP - 10 "Permanent Residency Status Determination," especially sections 6.5 (Employment outside of Canada) and 12 (Procedure: Guidelines for examining the residency obligation); this is mostly for visa offices processing PR Travel Document applications​

ENF - 23 "Loss of Permanent Resident Status," especially Section 7.4 "Employment outside Canada" which includes guidelines about suggested information and documentary evidence which is useful in determining if the working-abroad-for-Canadian-business-credit is allowed.​

​

ENF - 4 "Port of Entry Examinations," especially section 11.12 "Residency obligation for permanent residents"​

​

ENF - 27 "Permanent Resident Card,"​

Key (and oft cited) Federal Court Decisions regarding this issue:

Decision by Justice Simon Noël in Bi v. Canada 2012 FC 293 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/fqtsz​

​

Decision by Justice Kane in Durve v. Canada [2015] 3 FCR 537, 2014 FC 874 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/g90xc​

​

Decision by Justice Richard Boivin in Canada v. Jiang, 2011 FC 349 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/flfrk​

​

Decision by Justice Shore in Baraily v. Canada 2014 FC 460 (CanLII), http://canlii.ca/t/g6z62​

Key and Significant IAD decisions regarding this issue:

Kapoor v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 112319 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw8jt​

​

Belghiti v Canada (Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness), 2016 CanLII 54523 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/gt2g9​

​

Siek v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 79718 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/htnww​

​

He v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 118633 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwjnm​

​

Alkhen v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 107669 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hw2jt​

​

Nagappan v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2018 CanLII 117109 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/hwgqs​

​

Shen v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2017 CanLII 56623 (CA IRB), http://canlii.ca/t/h5pqz​

ALSO SEE (may be some repeat of sources):




Note:

On one hand there is too much parsing of particular terms, tending to distort if not outright mislead the actual meaning and use of the term. On the other hand, many times the discussion about an issue can gloss over very important elements in how this or that term is employed. Always helps to read and understand terms in context, in both the source itself and in cross-referencing how it and other related terms are employed in other sources, and if available, in actual cases (which is why I turn so often to the Federal Court and IAD decisions).

It is sometimes problematic the way IRCC will employ some words in a way that almost conceals the key information. I can see how many might indeed see that help centre FAQ information and not recognize just how loaded the use of the word "may" is in that (note, after all, if one in a hundred will get the credit, the IRCC information would be accurate, a PR "may" get the credit; but that would be rather misleading).

IRCC is a big bureaucracy and does have some big problems in the way it does things. I understand why many get frustrated. Which does not mean I concur in a lot of the rant-noise in the forum; much of that is overblown, off the mark, or even total BS.

Thank you!