+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Working abroad for a Canadian business

berengena

Full Member
Aug 26, 2014
31
0
vensak said:
This is not clear from your statement:
1. Will you keep Canadian contract and you will be assigned as expat to the sister company?
2. Or will you get UK contract and you will be reporting to the headquarter.
3. And also will the assignment be temporary or permanent?

Especially if this assignment is long term to permanent or if you get UK contract instead, it can cost you your PR card.
1) It`s not a sister company, this is a medium sized company based in Montreal that sends me to the UK to develop the European market.
2) I will get a Canadian contract, signed in Montreal, but my salary will obviously be paid in GBP
3) This I`m not sure, it depends on me...but I can definitely ask to include the word ''temporary'' in the contract, if that helps me keep my PR
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,016
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
berengena said:
1) It`s not a sister company, this is a medium sized company based in Montreal that sends me to the UK to develop the European market.
2) I will get a Canadian contract, signed in Montreal, but my salary will obviously be paid in GBP
3) This I`m not sure, it depends on me...but I can definitely ask to include the word ''temporary'' in the contract, if that helps me keep my PR
1. For the company to be able to function on the UK market it has to be established in some way (be it a subsidiary, working office or daughter / sister branch). Even with latest CETA trading, that is still needed.
2. Normally your salary should be stated in CAD which is then transferable into GBP. I would at very least be concerned about that direct GBP fact.
4. Since the latest twist of events in UK (after the leaving vote), I would not be even sure about how much will be that position be long term wanted. For sure it can develop UK market, but when it comes to European market (like continental Europe), there is certain cautiousness when it comes to dealing with UK companies (and whatever office you will be working in there, shall have UK company registration to some level).
 

berengena

Full Member
Aug 26, 2014
31
0
1- Depends in the industry, to have someone doing business development you don`t necessarily need to establish a subsidiary.
2- This I agree with you, however am not sure how can this be done...tax income is lower in UK, so I wouldn`t want to pay taxes in Canada while living in UK
3- The latest twist events do not have any immediate effects in the industry I work for. UK is a major business hub.
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,016
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
That exact point (to pay taxes in UK) might be really big problem later. If he is indeed a foreign employee on a long term business trip assignment (what he should be), then he is supposed to be taxed according to the Quebec law still. What can come in play are some of the agreements between UK and Canada when it comes to such assignment (maybe when it comes to minimum salary or such). Such agreement should also prevent double taxation. By best guess, one of the proof he might be asked later (that he worked under Canadian contract) is tax payment proof in Canada.

UK market is hit by instability (people have voted foolishly, but government is now reluctant to say anything). And that very unstability is the very worth for the business. Especially when it comes to any long term goods or services. Simply said, companies have no idea how will whole international trade rules look for UK in 2 or 3 years. So that is not good condition for starting business. Short orders will come for sure, but they will be very reluctant to sign any long term contract, unless there is some back up country listed.
 

berengena

Full Member
Aug 26, 2014
31
0
One should pay taxes in the country he/she resides. Therefore, if you live in the UK, you pay taxes in the UK, if you live in Canada, you pay taxes in Canada. that being said, I will seek a lawyer here in Canada, before I leave, to determine what`s the most appropriate strategy for this matter. By the way, I`m European and have a EU passport

UK market is strong and stable, even more than the average of the European Union..i go often for work in the UK and the outcome for the next few years still looks positive.
 

Buletruck

VIP Member
May 18, 2015
6,687
2,531
I think the key is whether the position is contract and you have a position to return to Canada and be employed by the same company when you return. It can't be a indefinite period of employment. As long as the contract states a term and employment in Canada when you return, it should be fine. But check with a lawyer, and a good accountant that knows expat tax law.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,282
3,042
It cannot be emphasized enough that even if a job is definitively for a Canadian business, it can be extremely tricky to know whether a credit will be given toward compliance with the PR Residency Obligation for any long-term employment abroad.

Thus, it warrants emphasizing that before taking a long-term job at a location abroad, or at the very least before relying on getting PR RO credit for any time employed abroad, obtaining the opinion of a qualified, reputable, Canadian immigration lawyer is the prudent thing to do.

Determining if and when a PR Residency Obligation credit is available while employed abroad by a Canadian business, for any employment beyond the obvious, clear-cut short term assignment (which usually means the PR will not need the credit to begin with), demands a careful, informed, experienced analysis of a wide range of facts and circumstances. This forum is NOT an appropriate venue for obtaining legal analysis or a legal opinion.

Yes, this raises an obvious question: "what then is the credit for?" It is a good question. There is no clear answer. But make no mistake, as we have seen this credit applied (or more often, not applied despite being employed by a Canadian business), it is difficult to see who will qualify for this credit other than PRs who most likely do not need the credit.

As for the job being a "temporary assignment," it is worth remembering that saying it is so does not necessarily make it so, and more than a few cases have had a negative outcome due to CIC/IRCC concerns about the employer's credibility as much as the PR's. That is, CIC/IRCC have challenged, contested, or outright discounted the purported terms of the contract and looked more at the actual job itself.

So, before PRs begin running to their employers and getting terms incorporated into the contract of employment which ostensibly meet the temporary assignment requirement, and relying on incorporating such terms into the contract, getting a qualified, independent lawyer's opinion is still the better approach.

If I have time, I will later post some citations of authority regarding this. For now, the tipping point in this came around 2011, with the Jiang decision being one of the more salient and subsequently cited decisions about this.

See Canada (Citizenship and Immigration) v. Jiang, 2011 FC 349 at http://canlii.ca/t/flfrk
Note, this decision has been cited scores and scores of times, most often relative to the proposition that ". . .the panel’s finding that permanent residents holding full-time positions outside Canada with an eligible Canadian company can accumulate days that would enable them to comply with the residency obligation set out in section 28 of the Act, is unreasonable." This follows and largely applies the Minister's argument that there is "a distinction between an overseas assignment and being employed, on a permanent basis, in a position outside Canada."

To be clear about what Justive Boivin's decision states, and is thus a statement of law: there is NO credit for time working abroad for a Canadian business if the employment abroad is a permanent position.

There are links to more than a hundred citations of the Jiang decision, many of which are precisely about applying a temporary requirement, so anyone interested in doing their own research can start with the Jiang decision and follow the links from there.

Nonetheless, even if one does a lot of their own homework, it would be foolish to not obtain a professional opinion before relying on getting credit for any long-term job abroad.

It is worth noting the profound distinction and different direction things took regarding the other credit, that being relative to giving credit to a PR accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse. This went in the opposite direction. See for example the Liong v Canada (Citizenship and Immigration), 2013 CanLII 98789 (CA IRB) decision at http://canlii.ca/t/gj8wt . . . which illustrates the concern many might have about the credit but illustrates that the CIC, now IRCC, approach this issue, this credit, far more liberally and generously than they do the employed abroad credit.
 

berengena

Full Member
Aug 26, 2014
31
0
Thanks a lot for your imput on this. I agree with your suggestions and will check this asap with an immigration lawyer
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,016
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
berengena said:
Thanks a lot for your imput on this. I agree with your suggestions and will check this asap with an immigration lawyer
Yes that would be the best solution. I would say your PR and future citizenship has bigger value than your particular offer from your employer.

When it comes to UK market I am not saying that is big and nice, but in the long term there is lot of uncertainity included (when it comes to that particular referendum outcome). Giving my opinion as an industrial buyer I usually stay away from any risk or unknown danger (and yes the supplier might have even better pricing now, but since I do not know what will be in 3 years for new project that will last 10, I will not conclude contract just because of the future uncertainity). But that does not mean, that I would not buy something let s say short term (like 1 year contract services), as there are still the rules of the game known.
 

Rob_TO

VIP Member
Nov 7, 2012
11,427
1,551
Toronto
Category........
FAM
Visa Office......
Seoul, Korea
App. Filed.......
13-07-2012
AOR Received.
18-08-2012
File Transfer...
21-08-2012
Med's Done....
Sent with App
Passport Req..
N/R - Exempt
VISA ISSUED...
30-10-2012
LANDED..........
16-11-2012
berengena said:
Since January 2014 I work full-time for a Canadian company, based in Montreal, and travelling extensively around the world.

I just got offered and accepted a job in the UK, with the same Canadian Company...this will be working remotely from London for the same Canadian company and coming to Montreal at least 2 or 3 times a year.

My question is, is there anything I can do to maintain my PR status and that my days abroad count towards the right of acquiring the Canadian nationality?
It sounds like you've accepted a new job position based out of the UK office. It sounds like you've made a personal choice to accept this foreign position, it was not a direction from your company outside of your control. This would not be the same as having a job in Canada and being temporarily re-assigned to a foreign location with the intent to come back to Canada to resume your original position. For this reason, IMO I don't think the time spent outside Canada will count to your PR residency obligation.

You can definitely contact a lawyer to review your situation, but just be aware that CIC has applied this rule somewhat inconsistently in the past. It largely depends on the individual visa office you get that works on your residency obligation case and how they interpret the rule and your specific situation. So no matter what the most experienced lawyer may tell you, there's always a chance CIC will think and apply the rule differently which may require a future lengthy and costly appeal to try and keep your PR status.
 

MAnkit

Member
Dec 13, 2018
13
22
@longestboat , @dpenabill , @scylla , @brengana
Kindly update if you guys took the job offer outside Canada.
If yes , whether you were successful in getting citizenship with those credits or faced any issues.

This input from your end will be very helpful for future cases.
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,016
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
You don’t get credit for days to qualify for citizenship if you are outside Canada.
Unless you were assigned abroad by Canadian government (working in embassy, in army or such).
 

scylla

VIP Member
Jun 8, 2010
92,917
20,532
Toronto
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
28-05-2010
AOR Received.
19-08-2010
File Transfer...
28-06-2010
Passport Req..
01-10-2010
VISA ISSUED...
05-10-2010
LANDED..........
05-10-2010
@longestboat , @dpenabill , @scylla , @brengana
Kindly update if you guys took the job offer outside Canada.
If yes , whether you were successful in getting citizenship with those credits or faced any issues.

This input from your end will be very helpful for future cases.
You cannot count time spent working for a Canadian employer outside of Canada towards citizenship. You are mixing up citizenship and PR residency obligation rules.