Contract Job Experience confusion

[MrHappy]

Hey guys.
i have one quick question
i am working as software developer in big company and company policy says that they can not permanent hire
foreign workers so my employer has offered me this position as a contract of 4 month in dec 2014.
Now they have extended my contract till june 2016. I only have contract letter given by employer and my pay stubs, so my question is ' Does this experience get count in cic? ' will i be able to put this in my EE profile ?
i do get paid by weekly and employer has promised me to give company reference letter whenver i file my PR.

Regards.

 

[Dilbert]

Yes, it is counted towards the work experience. However, there are certain aspects to a contract employee.

1) Are you incorporated, or through an agency or directly on the payroll with the company on a contract ?

2) If you are incorporated, by definition it is considered as self-employed. There are exceptions to it aswell. You need to understand the nature of your contract whether it is contract-for-services or contract-of-service. You can find out the difference between the two on the hrsdc website. If this doesn't apply to you then you can ignore this.

3) Also since you mentioned you were offered a contract sicne Dec2014, I am correct in saying that it's only been 5 months since you've been working ? Were you working before also ? If you were not working before and you only have this 1 job which is atleast 30 hrs/week then you may not qualify for CEC as you need a minimum of 1 yr work experience.

All the above are speculations at this point. Perhaps if you can shed more light on your overall status, whether or not you have applied to EE already, if yes then what's your score, IELTS score , graduation details etc. Then I can help/suggest you better.

 

[f1ahmed]

Hi Dilbert,

I have a question for you. I have worked for a company from October 2013 to December 2014. First 5 months I received the payment as an incorporated body. rest 9 months I have received payments as regular employee. My job responsibilities were same and they have issued single letter stating that I have been working with them full time, for the whole period. Do you think CIC will count my first 5 months experience as work experience?

I am asking because in CIC website its written somewhere that self employed experience will not be considered. Again in EE proof of work, they advised a way how to prove self employed experience.

I have already opened a profile showing first 5 months experience as self employed and rest 9 months as regular employee. It looks like you have some good idea on the incorporated thing. could you please advise? thank you.

 

[vineshparekh]

Yes, it is counted towards the work experience. However, there are certain aspects to a contract employee.

1) Are you incorporated, or through an agency or directly on the payroll with the company on a contract ?

2) If you are incorporated, by definition it is considered as self-employed. There are exceptions to it aswell. You need to understand the nature of your contract whether it is contract-for-services or contract-of-service. You can find out the difference between the two on the hrsdc website. If this doesn't apply to you then you can ignore this.

3) Also since you mentioned you were offered a contract sicne Dec2014, I am correct in saying that it's only been 5 months since you've been working ? Were you working before also ? If you were not working before and you only have this 1 job which is atleast 30 hrs/week then you may not qualify for CEC as you need a minimum of 1 yr work experience.

All the above are speculations at this point. Perhaps if you can shed more light on your overall status, whether or not you have applied to EE already, if yes then what's your score, IELTS score , graduation details etc. Then I can help/suggest you better.


Hi Dilbert,

I am having the same problem. I started my job in Oct.2014 with agency and from May 2015, I am offered a contract from company so can I apply for EE in Oct.2015?

Which documents I would need from agency and which additional documents CIC may ask me to provide for the work expereince

Thank you,

Vinesh

 

[Dilbert]

@F1ahmed: I am an IT Consultant(incorporated) myself with NOC 2171 and pretty much in the same boat as you. My score is 404 and I am eligible for both FSW & CEC. I did some digging and a lot of googling so apparently there is no clear answer with regards to work experience as a consultant being counted or not, well atleast I don't know if anyone as a consultant who has incorporated and has already applied for EE and got an ITA. I don't want to give you wrong information but what I have found out on the net I can definitely share it with you.

I apologize as I am not allowed to post links hence search on this forum board for below thread :
canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/is-independent-contractor-full-time-work-experience-for-a-company-

With respect to your query regarding self-employment on the cic website. Even though you are self-employed such as myself within that, there are two categories as I mentioned earlier. Contract-for-services & Contract-of-service. You can find out the difference here and see which one fits best in your case. Google search the term below
" RC4110 - Employee or Self-employed? "

You mentioned that "I have already opened a profile showing first 5 months experience as self employed and rest 9 months as regular employee". I have the following questions for you :
1)did the EE profile calculate your score for 1 yr work experience towards CEC ?
2)Did you mark the checkbox under work history as "This position is Self-Employed" ?
3)With whom did you incorporate the company ? Are you a director/partner in the company ? Is it a numbered/named company ?
4)Did the company pay you through your incorporation or was there an agency involved in between ?

If you can answer all these questions it would help me better understand your situation.

You may quote the cra website with the exact definition (which is a re-routed link from the cic website when searched for self-employment on their search index) if they come back to me asking for an explanation. This is basically your EE proof of work and you can also appeal it if they consider it otherwise.

@Vinesh : Only the questions 3 & 4 above apply to you. Can you please clarify that for me. As for the documentation with the agency is concerned then if you have a good relation with the agency hiring manager then you can draft your own wordings and try not to mention the word "self-employed" in the letter of reference. All additional documentation still hold true based on the link below. Again, search this on the forum :
canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/document-checklist-fsw-t278095.0.html

*************************
Please note, I am not in a position to tell you exactly what to do, as you are only absorbing the information and you shall fill the EE based on your own best judgement. In your case I would suggest you be smart with what documentation you produce and how. Please do not hold me accountable/liable for your application.

 

[f1ahmed]

Hi Dilbert,

I have started working as a ERP SAP consultant from October 2013. I was hired by a recruiting agency to provide consultancy to company A. Recruiting agency advised me to be incorporate and i did. I used to receive my payment under my corporation name from my recruiting agency. I have worked till March 2014 as an incorporated body. Then i thought it might be an issue during immigration and converted my status to regular employee and started getting payment as an employee. I worked till December 2014 for the recruiting agency. In December, the company A directly offered me a full time permanent position and hired me based on my open work permit. I am currently employed with company A and continuing.


1)did the EE profile calculate your score for 1 yr work experience towards CEC ? -I am not sure about that because even if the system does not recognize my first 5 months experience, still i have more than 1 year experience as an employee and there is no gap in between these two jobs.

2)Did you mark the checkbox under work history as "This position is Self-Employed" ? - yes i did, for first 5 months experience

3)With whom did you incorporate the company ? Are you a director/partner in the company ? Is it a numbered/named company ?- yes, its a numbered name company like: 123456 Canada Inc. i am the director of the company, there are no other partner.

4)Did the company pay you through your incorporation or was there an agency involved in between ?- Through the agency.

Now you may ask that why am i worried?? I am a little bit worried about the title of my current job. While i was working for the company, my title was something related to Software analyst (NOC 2171). I am still doing the same work but the title got changed, now it more looks like a business position. Though my current manager issued an experience letter stating that i am doing the same work i have been doing since 2013.

My current score is 474. and thank you very much for your reply. there are very few people here in this group who has self employed experience i guess. Probably that's why i could not find enough good advise regarding this issue. Thank you.

 

[f1ahmed]

Director of my recruiting agency have already issued me the reference letter stating that i worked for them from October 2013 to December 2014. he did not even mention that i received payment under my corporation name for the first months. But i did not wanted to take risk as i don't have T4 and NOA for 2013. If CIC asks for these two document for 2013, i would be caught and this would definitely be considered as misrepresentation.

My Job responsibilities are good to match with NOC 2171. i wanted to choose 2173 but its a regulated job in Canada. That's why I choose 2171. All I am worried about the Job title. I dont know how much CIC cares about the title.

I could play with my profile by not mentioning my current job to see if it gives me points for self employed portion, but I heard so many complain regarding the system glitch, i did not dare Don't know what will happen but now i can provide all required documents.

Do you know if it is a good idea to get the NOC code in the reference letter? would that be much more safe? Thanks.

 

[Dilbert]

Hi Dilbert,

I have started working as a ERP SAP consultant from October 2013. I was hired by a recruiting agency to provide consultancy to company A. Recruiting agency advised me to be incorporate and i did. I used to receive my payment under my corporation name from my recruiting agency. I have worked till March 2014 as an incorporated body. Then i thought it might be an issue during immigration and converted my status to regular employee and started getting payment as an employee. I worked till December 2014 for the recruiting agency. In December, the company A directly offered me a full time permanent position and hired me based on my open work permit. I am currently employed with company A and continuing.


1)did the EE profile calculate your score for 1 yr work experience towards CEC ? -I am not sure about that because even if the system does not recognize my first 5 months experience, still i have more than 1 year experience as an employee and there is no gap in between these two jobs.

2)Did you mark the checkbox under work history as "This position is Self-Employed" ? - yes i did, for first 5 months experience

3)With whom did you incorporate the company ? Are you a director/partner in the company ? Is it a numbered/named company ?- yes, its a numbered name company like: 123456 Canada Inc. i am the director of the company, there are no other partner.

4)Did the company pay you through your incorporation or was there an agency involved in between ?- Through the agency.

Now you may ask that why am i worried?? I am a little bit worried about the title of my current job. While i was working for the company, my title was something related to Software analyst (NOC 2171). I am still doing the same work but the title got changed, now it more looks like a business position. Though my current manager issued an experience letter stating that i am doing the same work i have been doing since 2013.

My current score is 474. and thank you very much for your reply. there are very few people here in this group who has self employed experience i guess. Probably that's why i could not find enough good advise regarding this issue. Thank you.

Well this certainly gives me a better understanding of your status. Your work exp is more than 1yr but less than 2 yrs with or without the 5mnths self-employed, hence I would suggest you completely leave the 5months out else it'll only be a hassle for you to gather all the paperwork as there are no additional pts for 1.5yr of work exp. Better to leave things out than to be deemed as misrepresentation and panic. As far as the job title goes, you can mention both the titles in the reference letter since you worked for the same company. It's the Duties/Roles & Responsibilities that CIC looks for. Both NOC 2171 & 2173 would fall under the same category according to this link:
hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC/2011/ViewAllTitlesQuickSearch.aspx?val=2&val1=2171&val65=2171

If the HR can form a link between the duties you perform and reference the HRSDC website then yea, it would be a safer option, else don't worry about it, just a title should be enough. Even better, if you can draft your own sample reference letter according to CIC and then have the HR sign it and print it on a letter head.

Considering your score, I can say for sure that you will get an ITA soon, I still have to bump up my score. Good Luck

 

[f1ahmed]

Well this certainly gives me a better understanding of your status. Your work exp is more than 1yr but less than 2 yrs with or without the 5mnths self-employed, hence I would suggest you completely leave the 5months out else it'll only be a hassle for you to gather all the paperwork as there are no additional pts for 1.5yr of work exp. Better to leave things out than to be deemed as misrepresentation and panic. As far as the job title goes, you can mention both the titles in the reference letter since you worked for the same company. It's the Duties/Roles & Responsibilities that CIC looks for. Both NOC 2171 & 2173 would fall under the same category according to this link:
hrsdc.gc.ca/NOC/English/NOC/2011/ViewAllTitlesQuickSearch.aspx?val=2&val1=2171&val65=2171

If the HR can form a link between the duties you perform and reference the HRSDC website then yea, it would be a safer option, else don't worry about it, just a title should be enough. Even better, if you can draft your own sample reference letter according to CIC and then have the HR sign it and print it on a letter head.

Considering your score, I can say for sure that you will get an ITA soon, I still have to bump up my score. Good Luck

Thanks Dilbert, I will take that 5 months experience out of my profile. And my current employer has issued the reference letter mentioning both positions and title, with the same responsibilities. Hope it will work fine.

I guess you did not get enough points in skill transferability section. hope you will find some way to raise your score. and good luck to you too. Thank you.

 

[vineshparekh]

@ F1ahmed: I am an IT Consultant(incorporated) myself with NOC 2171 and pretty much in the same boat as you. My score is 404 and I am eligible for both FSW & CEC. I did some digging and a lot of googling so apparently there is no clear answer with regards to work experience as a consultant being counted or not, well atleast I don't know if anyone as a consultant who has incorporated and has already applied for EE and got an ITA. I don't want to give you wrong information but what I have found out on the net I can definitely share it with you.

I apologize as I am not allowed to post links hence search on this forum board for below thread :
canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/is-independent-contractor-full-time-work-experience-for-a-company-

With respect to your query regarding self-employment on the cic website. Even though you are self-employed such as myself within that, there are two categories as I mentioned earlier. Contract-for-services & Contract-of-service. You can find out the difference here and see which one fits best in your case. Google search the term below
" RC4110 - Employee or Self-employed? "

You mentioned that "I have already opened a profile showing first 5 months experience as self employed and rest 9 months as regular employee". I have the following questions for you :
1)did the EE profile calculate your score for 1 yr work experience towards CEC ?
2)Did you mark the checkbox under work history as "This position is Self-Employed" ?
3)With whom did you incorporate the company ? Are you a director/partner in the company ? Is it a numbered/named company ?
4)Did the company pay you through your incorporation or was there an agency involved in between ?

If you can answer all these questions it would help me better understand your situation.

You may quote the cra website with the exact definition (which is a re-routed link from the cic website when searched for self-employment on their search index) if they come back to me asking for an explanation. This is basically your EE proof of work and you can also appeal it if they consider it otherwise.

@ Vinesh : Only the questions 3 & 4 above apply to you. Can you please clarify that for me. As for the documentation with the agency is concerned then if you have a good relation with the agency hiring manager then you can draft your own wordings and try not to mention the word "self-employed" in the letter of reference. All additional documentation still hold true based on the link below. Again, search this on the forum :
canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/document-checklist-fsw-t278095.0.html

*************************
Please note, I am not in a position to tell you exactly what to do, as you are only absorbing the information and you shall fill the EE based on your own best judgement. In your case I would suggest you be smart with what documentation you produce and how. Please do not hold me accountable/liable for your application.

Hi Dilbert,

I just found out from agency recruiter that I am not self-employed and they also promised me that they will sign on letter as per the requirements but I am not sure as out of total 1560 hours, I will be working 80% of the hours through agency but at the time of creating profile, I would be a permanent full-time employee of the company. If you can advise the details I should make agency to provide me on reference letter than I can clarify with them quickly.

Thank you very much,

Vinesh

 

[pziegler1986]

The agencies I have worked for have always included clauses in the contract that the services performed will be that of an "independent contractor" even though, technically it was more of an employer-employee type relationship. So I put all my experience as self-employed. I am not incorporated but have HST registration and Business Number (Sole Proprietor).

Yet I still receive T4 slips and CPP/EI gets deducted from my pay (except for income tax).

 

[vineshparekh]

The agencies I have worked for have always included clauses in the contract that the services performed will be that of an "independent contractor" even though, technically it was more of an employer-employee type relationship. So I put all my experience as self-employed. I am not incorporated but have HST registration and Business Number (Sole Proprietor).

Yet I still receive T4 slips and CPP/EI gets deducted from my pay (except for income tax).

I have a same case like you but in my case agency also deducted income tax from my pay. I don't know if that makes any difference

 

[pziegler1986]

Then you are an employee of the agency.

 

[Dilbert]

Hi Dilbert,

I just found out from agency recruiter that I am not self-employed and they also promised me that they will sign on letter as per the requirements but I am not sure as out of total 1560 hours, I will be working 80% of the hours through agency but at the time of creating profile, I would be a permanent full-time employee of the company. If you can advise the details I should make agency to provide me on reference letter than I can clarify with them quickly.

Thank you very much,

Vinesh

@Vinesh: Well that's great news. I do not have a sample of the reference letter as of now. I am currently in the midst of getting one for myself from the agency and my client. Hopefully in the coming days i'll post one up. Thanks for the reminder, imam go kick my recruiter for delaying that.

 

[Dilbert]

The agencies I have worked for have always included clauses in the contract that the services performed will be that of an "independent contractor" even though, technically it was more of an employer-employee type relationship. So I put all my experience as self-employed. I am not incorporated but have HST registration and Business Number (Sole Proprietor).

Yet I still receive T4 slips and CPP/EI gets deducted from my pay (except for income tax).

You mentioned that you put all your experience as Self-Employed, knowing that EE does not factor self-employment work exp and would not allocate points to you for that. So my question is "Did you get CRS points for self-employed work experience" ?

I have similar wording in my contract as well, although the idea is to have two reference letters; one from client and one from agency and formulate a link which will show an employer-employee relation. It is for the EE agents to identify whether you should be awarded the points or not. You are in no-way misrepresenting, instead you are not aware of the situation.

Bottom line is if you are submitting experience as Self-Employed then you at the back of your head know that you will not get points for it, however if you leave it up to the EE agents, there is a possibility that you might. In either case you have nothing to lose.

This is the approach I am taking, I am responsible for my own application and none other. If you wish to do it the same way, then please do it at your own risk and not blame me for it.