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PR renewal application on H&C grounds, didn’t meet RO please help

avocado67890

Newbie
May 13, 2022
7
1
Hi guys, I need some advice regarding my PR card renewal case.

In 2014 I was 14 years old and I came to Canada with my parents and then we flew back to our home country 3 weeks later. After that my father didn’t bring us back to Canada because he had to take care of his sick mom back in our home country.

in 2018 at 18 years old I came back to Canada (I was still a PR and not turned away at the border even though I hadn’t met my RO) and was advised by a paralegal to submit a PR card renewal application on H&C grounds so I did.

after living here, I have now been in Canada for 2 out of 5 years. My application notes say a pr has been issued but they said that the application hasn’t been approved yet. they said they would ask me to come in but they never did for an interview. I am also getting married to a Canadian citizen in 2 months. I have been studying in Canada and intend to live here. Another thing to add is that I have a greencard and have been able to enter and leave Canada during this time to visit my family in the US. however 2 months ago when I was visiting my family in the US and coming back to Canada with them (all on the basis of our green cards) the border officer at Canada stopped us and said we should renounce our pr statuses. My family, who hasn’t been living in Canada said they would renounce theirs. But I told the officer that I have a PR renewal application in progress and want to stay in Canada and am getting married here. He said I should call IRCC to sort my case if I want to keep my PR and then he let us through. He also said the PR card has been issued and they want to meet me to see if they want to give it to me because they didn’t find strong enough H&C reasons on my application. During this convo I was still 2 months short of meeting RO. but now I have completed 730 days in Canada over the past 5 years. I was wondering if I can update my current application H&C grounds to say I am getting married and that I am now in compliance with RO. Or if I should revoke my current application and file a new one (its been saying PR already issued and decision made so I’m not sure if I can do this). Or if I should renounce the PR and just apply for spousal sponsorship when I am married in 2 months?
 
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
5,511
2,478
Hi guys, I need some advice regarding my PR card renewal case.

In 2014 I was 14 years old and I came to Canada with my parents and then we flew back to our home country 3 weeks later. After that my father didn’t bring us back to Canada because he had to take care of his sick mom back in our home country.

in 2018 at 18 years old I came back to Canada (I was still a PR and not turned away at the border even though I hadn’t met my RO) and was advised by a paralegal to submit a PR card renewal application on H&C grounds so I did.

after living here, I have now been in Canada for 2 out of 5 years. My application notes say a pr has been issued but they said that the application hasn’t been approved yet. they said they would ask me to come in but they never did for an interview. I am also getting married to a Canadian citizen in 2 months. I have been studying in Canada and intend to live here. Another thing to add is that I have a greencard and have been able to enter and leave Canada during this time to visit my family in the US. however 2 months ago when I was visiting my family in the US and coming back to Canada with them (all on the basis of our green cards) the border officer at Canada stopped us and said we should renounce our pr statuses. My family, who hasn’t been living in Canada said they would renounce theirs. But I told the officer that I have a PR renewal application in progress and want to stay in Canada and am getting married here. He said I should call IRCC to sort my case if I want to keep my PR and then he let us through. He also said the PR card has been issued and they want to meet me to see if they want to give it to me because they didn’t find strong enough H&C reasons on my application. During this convo I was still 2 months short of meeting RO. but now I have completed 730 days in Canada over the past 5 years. I was wondering if I can update my current application H&C grounds to say I am getting married and that I am now in compliance with RO. Or if I should revoke my current application and file a new one (its been saying PR already issued and decision made so I’m not sure if I can do this). Or if I should renounce the PR and just apply for spousal sponsorship when I am married in 2 months?
Lot of detail to sort out. Without cross-checking it all, the main thing is that if YOU, you personally, have not been issued a Removal Order and you are currently IN Canada, and as of today you have been IN Canada for more than 730 days within the preceding five years (as of today), your PR status is OK.

Getting a new PR card, and when that will happen, hard to sort out from your details. But that does not matter much, at least not in terms of how secure your PR status in Canada is.

So, for purposes of maintaining your status in Canada, you should be fully OK.

For purposes of U.S. law, the status of your Green Card and such, I do not know. (Don't like that country much, so I don't pay much attention to its immigration status laws.)

But again, unless you have been issued a Removal Order, it appears your Canadian status is secure. No need to renounce and re-apply. May take awhile, in the meantime, to get a new PR card, but your status as a PR should be OK.
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
10,988
5,573
He said I should call IRCC to sort my case if I want to keep my PR and then he let us through. He also said the PR card has been issued and they want to meet me to see if they want to give it to me because they didn’t find strong enough H&C reasons on my application.
Concur with above.

Have you tried calling IRCC as advised?

I'd also suggest contacting your MP's office and see if they can help shake the PR card loose.

And related important question: apart from the inconvenience at border and not having a PR card in general, are there any specific issues you have had? Do you have a SIN card, health, etc.?
 

avocado67890

Newbie
May 13, 2022
7
1
Concur with above.

Have you tried calling IRCC as advised?

I'd also suggest contacting your MP's office and see if they can help shake the PR card loose.

And related important question: apart from the inconvenience at border and not having a PR card in general, are there any specific issues you have had? Do you have a SIN card, health, etc.?
Hi thanks for the response, I didn’t call IRCC because I spoke to some lawyers who told me to not call them without meeting my RO. I only completed the 730 days 2 weeks ago. the border officer advised me to call them over 2 months ago. Will not having called them impact me or my status?
Also, no I haven’t had issues. I have a health card, Ontario ID, SIN, active bank account here etc.

The only thing I’m concerned about is how to get a new PR card. I’m afraid if I contact them they will tell me when I filed my application I didn’t meet RO, and that my PR status will be revoked. Basically my main question is, since I am now in compliance with RO, does this mean my status is safe?
 

avocado67890

Newbie
May 13, 2022
7
1
Lot of detail to sort out. Without cross-checking it all, the main thing is that if YOU, you personally, have not been issued a Removal Order and you are currently IN Canada, and as of today you have been IN Canada for more than 730 days within the preceding five years (as of today), your PR status is OK.

Getting a new PR card, and when that will happen, hard to sort out from your details. But that does not matter much, at least not in terms of how secure your PR status in Canada is.

So, for purposes of maintaining your status in Canada, you should be fully OK.

For purposes of U.S. law, the status of your Green Card and such, I do not know. (Don't like that country much, so I don't pay much attention to its immigration status laws.)

But again, unless you have been issued a Removal Order, it appears your Canadian status is secure. No need to renounce and re-apply. May take awhile, in the meantime, to get a new PR card, but your status as a PR should be OK.
hi,thank you for the response. Yes, I am in Canada and in compliance with RO and still hold status as a PR. But my PR card is expired. My PR renewal H&C application was filed when I was in breach of RO and I self declared not having met RO. The PR card was issued but they won’t give it to me until I call them and explain why I didn’t meet the RO (the CBSA officer told me this). He said I have to meet them but they never scheduled an interview. I am worried if I contact them they will revoke my status, which is safe for now.

if I now meet RO, can they still decline my application and issue a removal order because I didn’t meet it back then?
 
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
10,988
5,573
Hi thanks for the response, I didn’t call IRCC because I spoke to some lawyers who told me to not call them without meeting my RO. I only completed the 730 days 2 weeks ago. the border officer advised me to call them over 2 months ago. Will not having called them impact me or my status?
Also, no I haven’t had issues. I have a health card, Ontario ID, SIN, active bank account here etc.

The only thing I’m concerned about is how to get a new PR card. I’m afraid if I contact them they will tell me when I filed my application I didn’t meet RO, and that my PR status will be revoked. Basically my main question is, since I am now in compliance with RO, does this mean my status is safe?
I don't believe inquiring through your MP or calling now can affect your status, now that you have met your RO and not been issued (seemingly) ANY paperwork constituting a report or a removal order or anything.

Now mind, since you have everything you need except the PR card, you can proceed without too much concern or haste. But I think you don't have any reason to worry at this point.

My understanding is they mark some cards (and yours) as 'for pickup', primarily to confirm you are in country. Unfortunately, they put a lot of these pickups on hold during covid and don't seem to be clearing the backlog. At any rate, since you're in country - no worries.
 

avocado67890

Newbie
May 13, 2022
7
1
I don't believe inquiring through your MP or calling now can affect your status, now that you have met your RO and not been issued (seemingly) ANY paperwork constituting a report or a removal order or anything.

Now mind, since you have everything you need except the PR card, you can proceed without too much concern or haste. But I think you don't have any reason to worry at this point.

My understanding is they mark some cards (and yours) as 'for pickup', primarily to confirm you are in country. Unfortunately, they put a lot of these pickups on hold during covid and don't seem to be clearing the backlog. At any rate, since you're in country - no worries.
So it doesn’t matter that my PR renewal application was filed when I didn’t meet RO now that I’ve met it? Do I need to update them and tell them I have been present in Canada for over 730 days now? What if they don’t know this info and decide to revoke my status?

Also thanks for clearing that up for me, it does take some worry off my chest
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
10,988
5,573
So it doesn’t matter that my PR renewal application was filed when I didn’t meet RO now that I’ve met it? Do I need to update them and tell them I have been present in Canada for over 730 days now? What if they don’t know this info and decide to revoke my status?

Also thanks for clearing that up for me, it does take some worry off my chest
I don't think you need to update them, and in this particular case, I'd say it also seems there's no indication that they were ever planning to revoke it. (Arguably leaving you the opportunity to self-cancel if you showed up in some foreign country having spent years there and then asked for a PRTD to enter Canada - but I don't think that's a plan, just letting you vote with your feet, as it were).

Again my guess is that because you were underage when you left, they just let you enter and let 'time sort it out.'

And even if they were to open the file today, they would discover that you're now in compliance. That would actually be good for you.

That said, I'm not an expert. If you want to consult a lawyer to be certain, I'm not going to argue against that. But i think the phrasing to a lawyer would be 'I've received no adverse communications by post, the encounter at the border was vague but again, no paperwork, and now I'm in compliance. I should be fine, right?'
 

PestoStar

Member
Dec 17, 2021
11
3
Agreeing with the analysis and advice you've been given above; if I were in your shoes I would consider submitting a new, routine (not H&C) PR card renewal application, since you now satisfy the RO.
As @armoured pointed out, the long delay in your H&C renewal application (which may have been intentional) has been a good thing for you, allowing you to keep your status and get back in compliance. My thinking is that trying to get that old application unstuck and to its happy conclusion may just take more time and effort than a new straightforward application. To be clear, I don't think there's risk to your status from either application getting processed since you now satisfy the RO. I just think that a new routine application may get processed faster, and even if it -too- got stuck for some reason or collided with the older one somewhere in the system, you're not worse off than where you are now.
That's my opinion anyway, based mostly on own and others' anecdotal experiences and tea leaf reading of how IRCC operates.
I would just make sure I have a few more weeks at least over the 730-day mark to make the application more solid.
 
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
5,511
2,478
So it doesn’t matter that my PR renewal application was filed when I didn’t meet RO now that I’ve met it? Do I need to update them and tell them I have been present in Canada for over 730 days now? What if they don’t know this info and decide to revoke my status?
What matters is whether or not a 44(1) Report was previously prepared, either resulting in a Removal Order or the Report not yet resolved.

That is the key because as long as you have not been issued a Removal Order, you still have PR status.

And unless a Report was prepared and is still active, not yet resolved, days in Canada continue to count toward meeting the PR Residency Obligation. There is no retroactive RO breach enforcement. So IRCC cannot (and would not) proceed to make a decision today (or tomorrow or next week or month) that terminates your PR status because back when you made the PR card application, at that time, you were not in RO compliance.

To be clear, however, this depends on NO outstanding 44(1) Report. If in contrast there is an outstanding 44(1) Report, your days in Canada after that was prepared would NOT COUNT toward RO compliance.

So, as long as NO 44(1) Report has been prepared, correct, in terms of keeping PR status it does not matter the PR card application was made at a time when you were not in RO compliance.

No Report, No Removal Order, your PR status is good. When you can actually have a PR card in your hand, that is not so easy to predict, and in fact is basically not predictable . . . soon or not soon or not for quite a while. Note, having a PR card will NOT affect your PR status, so that should not be a primary let alone your only concern . . . unless you are totally confident there has been no 44(1) Report so far. I'll get to this.

I could explain why it does not matter, now (it could have before), that you made the PR card application at a time when you were not in RO compliance. And I have generally explained the relevant procedures elsewhere in the forum, but it is more important to verify there has been no 44(1) Report so far. Nothing you have said here indicates one has been prepared. However, there are some incongruities and gaps in your information, and some things which do not make sense.

Example: "I didn’t call IRCC because I spoke to some lawyers who told me to not call them without meeting my RO." Better to not go chasing after what lawyers might and might not say, but to be frank this does not make much if any sense, at least if you were talking to immigration lawyers. Especially since you already have a PR card application pending.

Then there was this: The border official "also said the PR card has been issued and they want to meet me to see if they want to give it to me because they didn’t find strong enough H&C reasons on my application." It is possible, assuming you are paraphrasing what the officer said changing the meaning a little, that this statement indicates that a positive decision was made and the PR card issued, but reserved for in-person pick-up to verify some of the information and that you are in Canada. But if IRCC "didn’t find strong enough H&C reasons on [your] application," and wants to meet you, that is NOT consistent with a new PR card being issued.

Add to that what I glossed over some: the extent to which you were short of complying with the Residency Obligation during that border crossing, subsequently clarifying that even after returning to Canada in 2018 you have continued to spend a considerable amount of time abroad . . . close to if not more than half the time abroad?

The latter brings up a question about whether you could have missed some IRCC communications while abroad? Does not appear you have, but again this is not entirely clear. In situations similar to yours it is always very important to make sure IRCC's contact information for you will actually get communications delivered to you.

So, in the meantime, there are some what-if-this? what-if-that? what-about-this? or that? . . . but the big one, the overriding question, is whether or not your status is OK . . . No outstanding 44(1) Report or Removal Order, your status is OK. So best to get to nailing this down and know for sure.

Contact IRCC to verify your status or the status of the PR card application. Still pending? That would be OK. Pending in-person pick-up? Definitely OK.

I cannot explain why a lawyer would say not to contact IRCC to make an inquiry as to your status or PR card application status. The purported reason for that is now moot. So cross that bridge, make the call or webform query, and go from there.
 
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armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
10,988
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What matters is whether or not a 44(1) Report was previously prepared, either resulting in a Removal Order or the Report not yet resolved.

That is the key because as long as you have not been issued a Removal Order, you still have PR status.

...
So, in the meantime, there are some what-if-this? what-if-that? what-about-this? or that? . . . but the big one, the overriding question, is whether or not your status is OK . . . No outstanding 44(1) Report or Removal Order, your status is OK. So best to get to nailing this down and know for sure.

Contact IRCC to verify your status or the status of the PR card application. Still pending? That would be OK. Pending in-person pick-up? Definitely OK.

I cannot explain why a lawyer would say not to contact IRCC to make an inquiry as to your status or PR card application status. The purported reason for that is now moot. So cross that bridge, make the call or webform query, and go from there.
I don't disagree with any of this; my assumption (not explicitly stated, or not strongly enough) was that there is no indication here that a report or removal order had been issued. And I was also assuming that the (perhaps garbled) interaction with CBSA indicated no such signs - but that was reading between the lines.

A side discussion is, if one has been issued, if there is any additional risk posed by taking further actions. It seems at minimum none by inquiring by phone or otherwise.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
5,511
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I don't disagree with any of this; my assumption (not explicitly stated, or not strongly enough) was that there is no indication here that a report or removal order had been issued. And I was also assuming that the (perhaps garbled) interaction with CBSA indicated no such signs - but that was reading between the lines.
We appear to be on the same page: Nothing to suggest that a 44(1) Report has been prepared or a Removal Order issued.

But otherwise the incongruities and gaps in the OP's accounts do not foreclose the possibility that there was, just as an example, some missed communications. Whether or not a Report has been prepared (just prepared, even without further action on it) is the most critical element in this scenario:
-- If NO Report has been prepared, all days in Canada during the last five years count toward RO compliance. So, currently in compliance, no significant risk to PR.​
-- In contrast, just as a possible example (nothing to indicate this has happened, but again what's recounted does not clearly indicate it has not happened), if the OP missed a request for information or documentation while outside Canada, it's possible or even feasible a Report has been prepared, and if that has happened days in Canada after that do not count, not unless the Report is set aside, and PR status is at risk​

Which leads to what you reference as a "side discussion," whether "there is any additional risk posed by taking further actions. It seems at minimum none by inquiring by phone or otherwise." No.

The risk is in the opposite direction. With perhaps some isolated exceptions, maintaining contact and engaging in communications with IRCC appears to almost always be the better approach for a PR. Things do NOT get better just by the passage of time. If, for example, a 44(1) Report has been prepared, that really does mean days in Canada after that do not count toward RO compliance . . . and while staying in Canada pending an appeal tends to help the H&C case in the appeal, even though those days do not formally "count," my strong impression is this is more about offsetting the negative implications of continued absence from Canada.

That a lawyer, let alone lawyers (plural) would advise not contacting IRCC makes no sense.

Advising a PR to not engage in a transaction for which PR status is a substantive element is different, and that makes sense. As many of us often caution: if not in RO compliance, avoid making a PR card or sponsorship application, and stay in Canada (in order to avoid making an application for entry into Canada when returning) . . . until getting into RO compliance.

Meanwhile I don't think the forum has ever seen anecdotal reporting of IRCC initiating RO enforcement actions other than in the course of proceedings for which the validity of the PR's status is required, thus triggering a RO examination and compliance determination. I do not read anywhere near every IAD decision about RO compliance, but I read a lot of them, and have been for many years now, and all the RO cases I have seen derive from one of the following:
-- PR TD application​
-- a Port-of-Entry examination (reminder: just showing up at a PoE constitutes making an application for entry into Canada)​
-- an inland application for which valid PR status is required, such as the PR card application or an application to sponsor family class PR​

There is NO sign that IRCC ever goes looking for RO non-compliance. It seems very safe to say that IRCC does not screen for RO non-compliance EXCEPT when a PR has initiated a transaction requiring verification of valid PR status.

It is worth noting, for example, that even when a PR applying for citizenship is identified/tagged, in that process, as having been outside Canada for such a lengthy period of time as to raise questions about RO compliance, there is no sign that IRCC will proceed with a RO compliance examination; rather an alert (or "flag") is added to their GCMS record such that if and when the PR makes a PR TD application or is being screened at a PoE, they are subject to a RO determination.

Given the exchange during the OP's last PoE examination, there is almost no doubt the OP's record is flagged. OP should be prepared to document travel history and actual presence in Canada if and when the OP travels abroad again. An in-person card pick-up appears to be the more likely, best scenario for delivery of a new PR card, which will involve a counter-interview at the least. But there is a real possibility that the OP could be scheduled for an interview to examine RO compliance, and here again the OP should be prepared to document travel history and actual presence in Canada.

But again, first order of business is to contact IRCC to verify current status.

The only thing I’m concerned about is how to get a new PR card.
Revisiting this, for clarification. Getting a new PR card does not restart the RO compliance clock. For the PR who STAYS in Canada, or at most makes brief trips abroad but is well settled IN Canada, a positive H&C decision resulting in issuances AND delivery of a new PR card essentially protects the PR from IRCC revisiting or questioning the PR's status as such . . . but if the PR goes abroad much or, particularly for a lengthy period of time, it is important to remember that upon arrival at a PoE from abroad, RO compliance is based on days IN Canada within the previous five years and date of issuance or expiration of the PR card is NOT relevant. We have seen a surge in reports related to PRs hoping to renew a PR card relying on H&C anticipating that will allow them to travel abroad . . . RISKY, and absent being well-established in a more or less permanent residence in Canada, likely to be very risky.
 

avocado67890

Newbie
May 13, 2022
7
1
Thank you for the detailed responses @dpenabill and @armoured

it looks like I will have to just call them at this point. Or I’m thinking of ordering gcms notes.

Another concern I had which I tried asking a lawyer but didn’t get an answer for was that my parents were at the border with me when we were stopped. They were advised to renounce their PRs if they want to come to Canada again using their green cards because they never lived here or intend to. The only reason they haven’t renounced their PRs yet is because they are afraid it will negatively impact my application since my father was the one who got the entire family Canadian immigration through him. I was his dependent back in 2014 when I got my PR. If he renounces his status, does that impact my ongoing pr card renewal application?
 
 

armoured

VIP Member
Feb 1, 2015
10,988
5,573
If he renounces his status, does that impact my ongoing pr card renewal application?
No, it does not.

Honestly, I expect the warning to your parents was a somewhat lazy officer - didn't want to start the process of reporting and revocation (paperwork), and didn't do more than put a note in the file. At some point one of them will start the process.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
5,511
2,478
Thank you for the detailed responses @dpenabill and @armoured

it looks like I will have to just call them at this point. Or I’m thinking of ordering gcms notes.

Another concern I had which I tried asking a lawyer but didn’t get an answer for was that my parents were at the border with me when we were stopped. They were advised to renounce their PRs if they want to come to Canada again using their green cards because they never lived here or intend to. The only reason they haven’t renounced their PRs yet is because they are afraid it will negatively impact my application since my father was the one who got the entire family Canadian immigration through him. I was his dependent back in 2014 when I got my PR. If he renounces his status, does that impact my ongoing pr card renewal application?
No, it does not.

Honestly, I expect the warning to your parents was a somewhat lazy officer - didn't want to start the process of reporting and revocation (paperwork), and didn't do more than put a note in the file. At some point one of them will start the process.
Agree with @armoured there will be no impact on your status if your parents renounce status.

I would note that if they are in Canada, now, and were to stay, it looks like they could save their PR status as well . . . just by staying for two years.

Does not appear that is the plan. But there have been quite a few PRs well in breach of their RO who have saved status by staying after being allowed entry without any 44(1) Report being prepared.

It can happen, but unless there is actually a 44(1) Report prepared at the PoE, it seems very rare for IRCC to follow-up with any action against the person's PR status. My sense is that the PoE officials expect the PR to not stay in Canada anyway, so more or less pass the loonie (the "buck" I guess they say) to the next official screening the PR if the PR does not actually renounce.
 
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