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Got arrested after decison made but before Oath

Discussion in 'Citizenship' started by kiala, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. You should start worrying less about whether you should take the oath on Feb 2, and more about doing your absolute best not to get convicted under 380(1)a.

    The hybrid offence for fraud over 5,000 carries a maximum sentence of 14 years, which means that, if you get convicted then reported (regardless of the amount of time you spend in jail), you will be removed, and you won't have any right to appeal the removal.

    Yes, it means that you will likely lose your PR status and get deported if you get convicted.


    Find a very good immigration lawyer, and also a very good criminal lawyer, who will work their best to get the charge reduced, or avoid conviction altogether.
    Bargeld, kiala, Natan and 1 other person like this.
  2. Find a very good lawyer immediately, you cannot take the oath if you are arrested and convicted, you must inform IRCC immediately if your situation changes, taking the oath would be fraud and illegal. Sometime they give you a form asking if you committed any offend since applying for citizenship, sometime they do not, however if it is discovered that you are taking the oath illegally your citizenship is then invalidated and you can be subjected to deportation
  3. Thx for info. I went to court house today and met duty counsil. They told me that on 16 march i have to appear for formal hearing. Trial starts only when i am ready and i can delay the trial as much as i can bcz of reasons not finding lawyer etc.

    Is that true. How long i can delay ??
  4. I want to add more. Police confiscated my PR card, SIN card, passports but today they returned PR card, SIN card etc
    azazaz likes this.
  5. Read dpenabills comments and advice. That's my advice.

    I just want to reiterate one thing: You MUST tell IRCC about this. There is no point in hoping to make it to the oath without them noticing it. Even if you make it to the oath, your citizenship can be stripped from you at any point in your life. There is no limit. Even if they find out in 30 years, they can still strip you of your citizenship for misrepresenting yourself. Most importantly, according to the new rules, if they catch you, you won't fall back to PR status. You will fall back to foreign national status, this means they can deport you.

    This is not something you want to risk. Imagine having that lifelong burden that at any point IRCC could ring your doorbell.

    And as everyone else said: Get a lawyer. No one is this forum is knowledgeable, trustworthy and reliable enough to help with such a special case.
  6. My guess was obviously wrong (I guessed it was likely to be a hybrid offence).

    This appears to be an Indictable offence.

    As others have emphatically cautioned: this is serious. You are at risk for spending time in jail and losing PR status and being deported from Canada.

    How serious this is depends on the underlying facts in the criminal case. You need a competent criminal defense lawyer to help you.

    It appears that you should immediately submit a request to withdraw your citizenship application. BUT I am not real confident this will suffice, let alone certain it is the best thing to do. It would be best to discuss this with a competent and reputable lawyer who primarily practices immigration and citizenship law BUT who is also familiar with Canadian criminal law.

    If affording a lawyer is a problem, your priority needs to be on defending yourself in the criminal case. Again, and this warrants repeating, as others have repeatedly said, this is serious. Your freedom and PR status are at risk. Thus, it warrants noting again that how serious this is depends on the underlying facts: these kinds of charges can arise from misunderstandings and then be resolved as a not nearly so serious matter . . . OR, they can be about overtly intended efforts to defraud and lead to a criminal conviction for which there could be jail time and loss of PR status.

    IN ANY EVENT . . .

    Do not take the oath. Absolutely do not sign the prohibitions declaration without revealing this. Just the fact you are charged, even if you are totally innocent, now means YOU ARE PROHIBITED from being granted citizenship. This prohibition applies for as long as the charges are pending.

    If the charges are dismissed, or conditionally discharged, or if you end up being convicted of a much less serious offence, and it is explicitly a Summary offence, you will be OK. But that is NOT likely to happen in time for this citizenship application. And that outcome likely depends on you having a competent defense lawyer.

    The consequences of a conviction for theft/fraud over 5k could be devastating. So dealing with the criminal charges needs to be your main priority.

    Other in-the-meantime observations:

    This forum participant is obviously in a highly stressful and difficult situation. There is no need for anyone here to judge. The Canadian criminal justice system is about as fair as such systems go. But, yes, those accused of crimes need an experienced, qualified advocate to help protect their rights and pursue a reasonable outcome.

    Otherwise, TROLL alert: please do not feed the troll. Be cautious and circumspect of those who do feed the troll.

    Again, the OP is obviously in a highly stressful and difficult situation. Troll driven diversions will not help and, as others have warned, could lead to very bad ends.
    hime, zardoz, razerblade and 8 others like this.
  7. Some additional observations:

    Criminal charges and convictions are one of the more common reasons why immigrants do not become citizens. The path to citizenship tends to run into a chasm over which there is no bridge when an immigrant ends up in the criminal justice system (there are ways out of this, but it is not easy). The path to deportation, for such immigrants, got dramatically wider and shorter during the Harper government, and that is how it is now, still, under a Liberal government. And make no mistake, this is something which is not controversial. Few Canadians disagree with the stricter policies for immigrants convicted of crimes. For obvious reasons.

    Hopefully the underlying circumstances for the OP are NOT serious, and this matter is resolved reasonably, fairly, and the OP can get back on the path to citizenship. A new application could be made soon, once the criminal matter is resolved, if this is resolved in a manner that does not result in any conviction for an indictable offence. If the OP faces a conviction for an indictable offence, the sentence imposed could determine whether the OP will lose PR status or not . . . if the OP is convicted of an indictable offence but is able to keep PR status, the OP will have to wait at least four years to no longer be prohibited, and also have at least three years of presence in Canada, once the prohibition period of time has passed, not counting any time spent serving a sentence or on probation or such. A long path, but manageable.

    Citizenship revocation risks:

    For the vast, vast majority of immigrants who become a citizen, the risk of having their citizenship later revoked is remote.

    This is relatively true, albeit somewhat less remote (that is, at somewhat more risk), even if there was some overt misrepresentations made in their PR application or their citizenship application (subject, obviously, to how serious a misrepresentation it was). Nonetheless, as has been noted, this risk hangs over the individual for the rest of the individual's life. Some revocation cases have been prosecuted FIVE DECADES later, and against individuals who established a very productive life in Canada, some even noteworthy for their contributions to the communities in which they lived, and who have many children and grandchildren, even great-grandchildren who are born-in-Canada citizens.

    In contrast, however, there is a much greater risk of revocation of citizenship for an individual who fails to disclose criminal charges made while the application is pending, who somehow nonetheless slips through the system (as noted, there should be a GCMS background check before the oath and that should reveal an arrest). Even before the 2008 to 2010 crackdown on fraud began under the Harper government, the failure to divulge a criminal charge or conviction was one of the more common grounds for revocation of citizenship, one of the reasons for which the government would actually take interest and pursue revocation. While residency fraud dominated revocation cases from 2010 until recently, those cases predominantly involved egregious, blatant fraudulent schemes. In the meanwhile, perhaps because they are easily proven cases, it appears CIC and now IRCC pursues revocation in any case where it is discovered the applicant failed to disclose a criminal charge or conviction. That is, the risk of revocation is likely very high for an applicant who appears to get away with failing to disclose a criminal charge while the application is pending.

    Impact of Misrepresentation:

    Some applicants who are certain they are innocent or otherwise very confident the charges will be dismissed or at worst result in a Summary offence conviction, appear to have succumbed to a temptation to NOT disclose the charges while the citizenship application is pending. The reasoning goes along the lines of:
    I am not guilty of an indictable offence, and will not be convicted of an indictable offence, therefore it is fair to not reveal the charges since ultimately the charges should not prohibit me from becoming a citizen.

    This is seriously flawed reasoning. It is a way to make the worst of a not-so-good situation. Odds are high that IRCC will discover the charges before the oath. If the applicant affirms there are no prohibitions, but there was in fact a charge pending (even if the applicant is totally innocent and expects the charges to be totally dismissed), and IRCC discovers this before the oath, the application will be denied and the applicant will be prohibited for FIVE years because of the misrepresentation.

    And if they do manage to slip through the system and take the oath, as noted, they will be at risk of revocation for misrepresentation for the rest of their life. And again, when it comes to the failure to disclose criminal charges, the risk of revocation is real and substantial. These are cases the government does prosecute.
    Bargeld, meyakanor, Buletruck and 3 others like this.
  8. dpenabill has great advice in the above two posts. I hope OP reads them and takes note, and ignores the "advice" that's in here saying it'll all be fine. It won't be fine. It'll be bad.

    If anyone gets their citizenship by misrepresentation, they are on borrowed time. It will catch up with them, sooner or later.
  9. #39 Officer Green, Jan 13, 2018 at 4:26 PM
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018
    There are already very detail and great advises and assumptions about the possible outcomes. OP may have following scenarios:

    1. Informs the IRCC and gets citizenship process suspended/on-hold/or terminated

    2. IRCC finds the indictment and dismisses the citizenship process

    3. OP is charged, citizenship application is rejected, PR status revoked, and deported

    4. OP manages to hide the issue and gets the citizenship:

    - The court will find immediately the changed citizenship status of the OP (a foreigner with a PR while he was arrested to now a Canadian citizen within 3 months), this should trigger the citizenship related investigation. It will be of a great surprise and the efficiency of the system integrity can be questioned if nothing happens.

    - Let’s say nobody is informed even after the OP is charged and he manages to get the oath and keep his citizenship status, OP will bear the stress throughout every moment of OP’s life as discussed in above posts.

    5. Consequences of any of the circumstances when the citizenship fraud comes into surface= OP loses citizenship as well as PR status and gets deported

    By the way, voluntary declaration of the offenses before the authority finds has less severe outcome in many cases (wrt citizenship or immigration issues).

    As OP has said: there are multiple charges including fraud exceeding $5000, attempted fraud exceeding $5000, and identity theft/misuse; I doubt that the offense is minor after reading above posts.

    If I am not wrong OP is/was associated with financial institution and fraud might be related or originated from there. Financial frauds are common news these days, and whole society is suffering from that as this is also a cause of social stratification in money oriented society. Many people (with good education and jobs), even with a decent income, are finding difficult to manage a good life in this country because of the result of economic imbalances rooted from unethical activities. I personally don’t like the frauds or people committing financial crimes. But we are not giving our opinion about whether you should be deported or not, rather discussing on your original post.

    I would advise OP to focus on saving the PR status. If you have a family, let them naturalize (even if you have to lose the PR status, you may come back after certain time) and naturalize once the circumstances allow.

    And, never ever do that again, rather report the criminals to police and help to clean the society (and then to keep the society clean). That helps to allow our beautiful children to live in a clean society once people used to enjoy!
    kiala and razerblade like this.
  10. Thank u all for inputs. More inputs will be welcomed
  11. I think that it's pretty much all *been* said already. Get at least one lawyer. Don't attend the Oath ceremony. Do inform IRCC.
  12. Yes am in process of getting a good lawyer. Hopefully soon
  13. #43 azazaz, Jan 15, 2018 at 12:06 AM
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018

    2.29 Obtaining information from the RCMP about criminal behaviour. To be eligible for citizenship, an applicant cannot have been convicted of certain offences, be in jail, or be on probation. All citizenship applicants over 15.5 years of age must undergo a criminal clearance check by the RCMP. Following this check, Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada requires applicants to self-report any new criminal charges before taking the oath. Citizenship officers check the Global Case Management System (GCMS) to see whether the RCMP has reported any new charges against the applicant at any point in the process. The RCMP and the Department have a memorandum of understanding for sharing information.

    2.30 We examined whether the Citizenship Program obtained accurate, complete, and timely information from the RCMP to make informed decisions when granting citizenship. We looked at two processes: criminal clearance screening, and the process for sharing information when the RCMP charges a permanent resident or foreign national with a crime. We focused on the information exchange between the Citizenship Program and the RCMP. We did not examine the quality of the databases from which the RCMP obtained the information it shared.

    2.31 The criminal clearance process begins when a citizenship officer requests a clearance check from the RCMP at the start of the application process. The RCMP checks a national database that includes information from police forces across the country, verifies whether the applicant has a criminal record, and shares this information with the citizenship officer. Once completed, this clearance remains valid for 18 months. We found that the criminal clearance process generally worked well.

    2.32 Under the memorandum of understanding, the RCMP has committed to share specific information about criminal charges against permanent residents and foreign nationals with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. This information helps the Department confirm applicants’ eligibility for citizenship.

    2.33 We examined whether the RCMP provided the Department with complete and timely information about criminal charges it brought against permanent residents and foreign nationals. Because the RCMP does not systematically track people’s citizenship status, we could not look at citizenship applicants and then search for those charged with crimes. Instead, we started with the RCMP’s occurrence database and searched for all criminal occurrences that included the keywords “permanent resident” and “foreign national.” We obtained a list of 2,576 criminal occurrences that had taken place since 2010 that contained these terms. We selected 38 cases where these individuals had been charged by the RCMP with a crime, some serious enough to make an individual ineligible for citizenship, such as drug trafficking and assault. We examined whether the RCMP shared this information with citizenship officers in a timely way so they could make informed decisions. We found that the RCMP shared the required information in only 2 of the 38 cases we examined (Exhibit 2.5).

    Exhibit 2.5—The RCMP did not share information about criminal charges with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada in most cases we examined
    Exhibit 2.5—text version
    2.34 Individuals were seeking citizenship in 4 of the 36 cases we examined where the RCMP did not share information about criminal charges with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. Since the criminal charges occurred after the criminal clearance process, citizenship officers had incomplete information about the applicants when the time came to grant citizenship. In 3 of these cases, the Department had no information about the criminal charges; the outcome was that 2 applicants received citizenship and a third who might have received it did not, due to failing the test on knowledge of Canada. The fourth, one of the 19 cases where information was added to GCMS by the Canada Border Services Agency, abandoned the application. A key reason for the observed gaps in sharing information about criminal charges against permanent residents and foreign nationals is that the RCMP and the Department have not established a process by which to share this information, as is required by their memorandum of understanding. Officers in both departments were not clear on what information they needed to share or when and how to share it. As a result, the process for sharing information on charges against permanent residents and foreign nationals was ad hoc and ineffective.

    2.35 Once the initial criminal clearance check is completed (very early in the citizenship application process), the Citizenship Program has no systematic way of obtaining information on criminal charges directly from police forces other than the RCMP. This means that if an applicant is criminally charged after passing the criminal clearance check, citizenship officers may never find out. While reviewing 42 revocation cases, we found that 7 individuals who had been charged with a crime by a police force other than the RCMP had not self-reported the charges, and had obtained citizenship. Completing the criminal clearance check at a later stage in the application process may help reduce the risk that individuals with criminal prohibitions will be granted citizenship.

    2.36 We also found that sometimes when citizenship officers did have access to information on criminal prohibitions in the GCMS, they did not act on it. We obtained all cases in which an individual’s citizenship was being revoked due to criminality. These individuals had been granted citizenship since 2011. We checked the database to see whether information about criminal charges was available to citizenship officers when they made the decision to grant citizenship. We found four cases in which information about criminal charges was available in GCMS, but had not been acted upon by citizenship officers. As a result, it is clear that some individuals have received Canadian citizenship even though criminal prohibitions should have made them ineligible.

    2.37 Recommendation. Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada and the RCMP should revise their procedures to clarify how and when to share information on criminal charges against permanent residents and foreign nationals, and should review the optimal timing of the criminal clearance process.

    The Department’s response. Agreed. Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada has engaged the RCMP to review the optimal timing for conducting criminal clearance, while bearing in mind the need to process citizenship applications in a timely manner. The Department has also engaged the RCMP to clarify processes for sharing information about criminal charges that impact citizenship applicants after the initial clearance. This will be completed by 31 December 2016.

    The RCMP’s response. Agreed. The RCMP will work with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada to address this recommendation. As a first step, the RCMP will examine the appropriate timing for the criminal clearance check during the citizenship application process. In addition, the RCMP will explore how and when the RCMP should share information about criminal charges against permanent residents and foreign nationals. This will involve examining relevant policy, including the existing memorandum of understanding between the Department and the RCMP. This will be completed by 31 December 2016.

    2.38 Obtaining information from the Canada Border Services Agency about potential immigration fraud. Operating under the authority of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Agency carries out a number of activities that support the Citizenship Program. The relationship, including information sharing between the two departments, is governed by a memorandum of understanding. The Agency supports Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada by

    • verifying if an applicant meets the residency requirement of the permanent resident program,
    • informing the Citizenship Program if an applicant is undergoing enforcement action that might make him or her ineligible for citizenship, and
    • leading investigations of immigration fraud—such as fraud related to residency or marriages of convenience—and sharing information with the Department’s immigration and citizenship programs.
    kiala likes this.
  14. Did you also inform IRCC of the impending charge? I noticed in your reply posts that you never said anything about informing IRCC about the charge.
  15. yes bro i called on last Friday, already told,, oath is with held now..

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