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Immigration Fraud, Marriage of Convenience, Marriage Fraud and Marriage Scam.

Discussion in 'General - All Canadian Immigration' started by watsonwoo, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. I found this thread very interesting -- I lived in Thailand for many years, where international marriages are part of the culture. On this thread you see the complaints of people who feel that they have been tricked by scheming foreigners, but you don't hear so much from the other half of the equation.

    - it is common that the people who marry internationally choose this route from the get-go; it is not a 'love' marriage on their part either, they have found a foreign woman and convinced themselves that they love her. Why? You can see it in the OP's beginning comment, he doesn't like western women who 'party' and are presumably independent. The corollary of this is that when the wife arrives she often finds that her husband is much more controlling than she realized; and here in a strange country she is dependent on him for everything. Such a marriage can collapse very quickly.

    - in many countries marriage is more contractual than in Canada. In Thailand, for instance, courtships are short and there is a financial element in marriage. At the same time, marriages are 'guaranteed' by the relative positions of clans and families in society -- if it breaks down, it is more in the nature of a contract falling apart than a betrayal. When a partner like that comes to Canada, they may feel that the other person has broken the contract first, for various cultural reasons, and their leaving is not necessarily a sign of fraud.

    - foreign brides are vulnerable. Any requirements that make them inferior to their husbands legally are dangerous. There are three principals involved:

    1) the requirements for bringing a partner into Canada should not be too rigorous, or true marriages will be discomposed.
    2) the ability of CIC to deport the partner in a marriage that fails should not be too strong; because there is no way that CIC can adjudicate the failure of a relationship.
    3) foreign brides are PRs within Canada, and should have the same rights to leave a relationship as all other PRs and citizens.

    - stop using CIC to validate or comfort yourselves after a relationship fails. And don't always assume that you were tricked, very frequently these marriages begin honestly and fail when the sponsoring partner turns out to be a different sort of person than they presented as in a foreign country.
  2. @ on-hold... thanks for this perspective on the nature of marriages in Thailand. I couldn't agree more. A marriage can break down before 2 years, it will be a dangerous precedent to be deporting people on this premise if they can't proof marriage fraud.

    Foreign grooms are just as vulnerable, but we don't hear much about them because our society does not make it OK for them to complain about abuse. There is a guy in the family sponsorship section who alleges his wife(the sponsor) and her family are demanding a huge sum of money from him and she wants his paycheck too.
  3. Another side to this is why does a spouse have the right to keep their PR if the marriage breaks down?

    They are getting their PR to join their spouse in Canada so if the marriage is no longer existent, why do they need the PR?

    I would agree that a person who has been in Canada for a while may argue that they are established in Canada, have a job, friends etc. and that Canada is their home now and this may happen after less time than 2 years. However, some of the people who argue that they have the right to PR through marriage even when the relationship has broken down, have not even landed yet.

    In any case, marriage fraud goes both ways. The sponsor, whether it is a man or a woman, can demand money for sponsoring someone or threaten to get them deported if they don't do x and y or pay sums of money etc. The sponsored person could also be the one committing the fraud and they can leave as soon as they landed, go on welfare and have the sponsor pay etc.

    With the new 2 year rule, it will be easier to deport people who skipped out on their spouses as soon as they landed. However, people could also be deported whose marriage broke down normally without it having been a MOC. There will also be marriage scammers who will simply stay with the sponsor for 2 years as the price of getting their PR and then leave and there will also be some who will try to use the loophole of abuse to explain their leaving.

    In any case, it's hard to make some rules that will fit every case. Somebody will always get hurt.
  4. I agree with everything in this post -- but not entirely the solution. To me, the problem here is that it is a 'if not X, then Y' issue. CIC has to decide if the marriage is genuine or not genuine. There will be many clear-cut cases; and there will be many cases that run closer to the boundary between them. Some of these will be real marriages that look fake; others will be fake marriages that look real. It can be pretty hard to tell the difference. Now you're adding a 2nd category -- marriages that break down. Some will break down for reasons caused by the immigrant (fraud); others for reasons caused by the sponsor (abuse, misrepresentation of life in Canada). If CIC creates a 2 year window of temporary PR, then they will also have to figure out how to adjudicate the following situations:

    - the immigrant partner creates a false record of abuse, in order to blame the sponsor and retain PR
    - the sponsor realizes (truely or falsely) that the immigrant partner is likely to leave when they become permanent, and makes life wretched or dangerous for them
    - the marriage breaks down for perfectly normal reasons but both partners maintain it for the sake of the immigrant's PR

    The latter probably wouldn't cause anyone much trouble, but the first two will absolutely occur, and I guarantee you that CIC does not enjoy deciding those any more than it enjoys trying to figure out which marriages are genuine in the first place.

    To me, the reason that a spouse has the right to keep their PR status if the marriage breaks down is this -- if they don't, then there are two classes of marriage in Canada, those that people have the right to end, and those that people have the right to end and then leave the country to go to back to a life that might not exist any more in the way that it did, and possibly experience a kind of shame that they're unable to conceal. The second kind of marriage is inferior; I don't have any opinion about the immigration issues, but I feel that it is strongly in Canada's interest to keep it from existing.

    But as for whether PRs by marriage should get to stay, why not? It's an arbitrary category, but all such categories are arbitrary. Canada's a big country . . .
  5. I don't entirely agree with the solution either. It fixes some things but causes other problems. I have criticized that from the start, before it even came into effect. The 2 year rule gives the sponsor too much power over their sponsored spouse for the next 2 years but can also cause false abuse cases where a scamming sponsored spouse wants to get out of the relationship without waiting.

    If they were to leave it though with cases where the sponsor files a complaint afterwards, that is not a 100% proof indicator either. I have seen sponsors scream MOC after a relationship broke down that had lasted several years and even produced children just because they were bitter. A real MOC where the sponsor may have been paid, the sponsor would of course not complain.

    I think it's difficult to deal with but there needs to be a way to deport people who are proven guilty of MOC and by that I mean the worst type cases where the sponsored person may not even rejoin their spouse in Canada after landing or leaves right after getting PR card, is proven to have been in a relationship with another person at the same time etc. IMO it is not fair for the sponsor who was duped like that to have financial responsibility for their MOC spouse for the next 3 years afterwards.
  6. And the imperfection of all possible solutions starts back with the marriage -- the fact that CIC has to judge whether a relationship is real or not. Every single standard that exists for this is easy to fake, sometimes by one person, sometimes by both; and it leads to people who are in real relationships having to make their relationship look real. My marriage, which has turned out to be, in fact, genuine :D, would have looked fake at first. And then every criteria for deciding that a marriage is fake is also arbitrary, and will exclude some real ones. Essentially, CIC has to decide what 'normal' is and then enforce that; and 'normal' is different everywhere, and different for same-sex relationships, and different individuals, etc. You can't even have a rubric -- so many marriage pictures, so many happy shots of the in-laws eating dinner with each other, it would be ridiculous.

    It would be interesting to see a comparison of how spouse PRs do in Canada over time, and compare that with the various skilled worker programs. It might be that there is less a gap than one would think (that the PRs under-perform relative to their skills), and that there are worse things than basically admitting random, relatively young people. One thing that I would do is consider extending the time for either sponsors or sponsees to sponsor another person.

    I think of the welfare repayment clause as a tax on unreality -- the men and women who go and find a partner who they don't know, who would never marry them in a 'normal' sexual marketplace (vast age difference, no language in common, someone who totally uproots their life to go live with a person who they essentially don't know). If you can delude yourself into thinking this marriage is genuine, how different is it from spending a year's tuition going to college when you're not prepared, or agreeing to lend your insolvent brother $30,000 dollars to rescue his business? In a way, the idea that the government is in some way responsible comes from the fact that the government approved the immigration in the first place -- like the Caribbean guy who was given PR despite having drug-resistant TB, who then sued the government for failing to diagnose his TB.
  7. When I got a letter from CIC saying that they will investigate the case, will he also recieve a similar letter? My question is that will he find out that I have already complained against him to Immigration? I am asking this as he keeps on sending me some formal emails with lot of legal language trying to blame me for all this.

  8. If they are investigating, they will likely have to contact him at some point. So it's possible he knows. It appears he may be trying to intimidate you. Do not reply any of his emails. If you have a lawyer, ask him/her to respond to the emails on your behalf. Sending hugs your way.

  9. why would these guys/girls have to run after getting their permanent resident ?

    do they were feel loved and they been sponsored cause you guys loved them and wants to make a family together or they were treated like you guys been doing them a favor by sponsoring them
    do they been forced to do things out of their opinions and they had to keep silent cause you guys been sponsoring them or otherwise they will lose their permanent resident if they refuse to do things out of their opinions
    in some cases the sponsor is not always a victim .
    I have witnessed an issue of a couple who met in Canada , they been together for 2 years before getting married . the guy his on work visa
    he makes money , never went on welfare and his a hard working guy, the girl she's already a citizen and she works too , ok I love you , you loved me lets get married and I will sponsor you my dear , they sent the sponsorship application and they got first step approved, medical done , decision made , his application almost finish but he had to call CIC and withdraw the application before getting his PR card ! why ? he's fed up with her , cause she's using him, she toke all his money and if he says a word she's telling him ok am gonna stop the sponsorship , she make him as made cleaning all the time and she's outside having fun, swearing on him , spending her credit card and create debt behind his back infact both working and makes good money and no need for debt , so basically she was using him and makes him feel like she's doing him a favor and he had to call to withdraw his own application and leave away cause this is not what he want , he wants to make a family and it's not only about sponsorship or papers it's about dignity and respect and security and having a view about the whole relationship and to where the relationship is going
  10. It goes both ways. You have sponsors who abuse the situation like the case you know but you also have people who commit fraud against the sponsor by pretending to be in love until they have their PR. In some cases, people like that landed without even telling their sponsor they were coming, in some cases, they were already in another relationship the whole time, in some cases, they left as soon as the PR card arrived in the mail etc. In some cases, they started becoming abusive to their sponsor as soon as they had landed, just like you described, expecting their sponsor to clean while they party all night, spending all the money etc. and saying that if they are kicked out, they can go on welfare, the sponsor has to pay.
  11. This is a very interesting issue

    I have witnessed many a cases of "marriage fraud" committed by the sponsored party so I am kind of biased in favour of the sponsoring party in the marriage. Yet, I am well aware that the sponsoring party can also take advantage of the sponsored party.

    My suggestion would be that the sponsored spouse not be allowed to apply for PR for a period of time once they move to Canada and then if the marriage seems to be working than the sponsoring spouse can make the commitment to sponsor. Mind you this is hardly fool proof. People who want to take advantage of the situation will still find ways to do so. This way, the sponsored party has to commit to the relationship for a period of time and can't just get out. As far as sponsored parties being controlled and abused in this situation goes, I believe that they have not established enough ties to Canada to warrant staying here and they should be made to leave if they are not happy in their marriage. Again, not a perfect solution but one that makes sense to me. Canada does not owe permenant residency or citizenship to brides and grooms just because they married a Canadian.
  12. They could definitely make it easier for spouses of PR's and Canadians to enter Canada. This is a problem for many because sometimes the long separation actually destroys the relationship and the processing times are ridiculous in some visa offices. It would actually not be a bad idea to give the sponsored spouse an open work permit for a 1 or 2 year trial period. They would have to apply for sponsorship within that time and could then extend the open work permit for as long as the processing takes.
  13. Somewhat like the UK model? You get an "Entry Clearance" as a new spouse and only after a set number of years, with the marriage subsisting, can you apply for ILR (the equivalent of PR), including the mandatory "Life in the UK" test.. I've not really kept up to date on the current rules for the UK but I think that they are now a) changed to make them stricter and b) much stricter ;D
  14. Yes
    As Zardoz mentioned, something like the UK and the EU does with its immigrant spouses.....
  15. Hello Everyone.
    I have a question: how long sponsored wife from another country must to be married to canadian citizen and live or pretend that she lives with him at mutual address in Canada before she can separate or divorce legally? Here is a situation: she has an arranged marriage since September, 2011 and, as I know, didn’t have papers until very resent time, I don’t think she even got them yet. Being legally married she met another man and since November, 2013 moved in with new boyfriend. There is no proof that it was arranged marriage, but is there a way to report her and get some actions done? Generally speaking, can she get away with this?

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