send reference letter with resume?

[Canaswiss]

Hi there

I have posted this under "finding work in Canada" but it seems like that part of the forum doesn't get a lot of attention....

Since I got my PR and am flying into Vancouver by the end of October I am starting to apply for jobs soon. And here's my question:
My wife is Canadian, I am Swiss. In Switzerland you get a reference letter from every employer and it is necessary to include every single one in your application. If you leave one out people will think that you have left the employer on bad terms or something else is wrong. Since I am going to apply in Canada soon, I would want to submit at least two reference letters with my inital application. One from my previous Canadian employer and one from my current employer in Switzerland. My wife says that in Canada you only submit reference letters if requested. She would include none or maximum one reference letter. What do others think??

I just think it's a great way to show what you have done in detail and whether the previous employer was satisfied with your work.... Plus having a reference letter from an employer from Canada should be helpful in my opinion. Even if it's not that common I can't see an employer dismissing my application because I included a reference letter or two.

Another question: Does anyone know of a homepage where I can advertise myself to Canadian companies looking for native German speakers?

Thanks in advance.

[canadianwoman]

Usually in Canada people include the name and address details of their references on the resume, or they say "References available on request.", but do not send the actual reference letter. Then if the employer wants to see the letters, he/she will ask for them. Often people do not get an actual letter; instead, the prospective employer can phone or email previous employers asking for details.

I wouldn't include reference letters with my resume when applying for jobs, unless the job ad specifically asks for them. Including one wouldn't hurt, I suppose.

[Bangkokcanuck]

My wife says that in Canada you only submit reference letters if requested. She would include none or maximum one reference letter. What do others think??

Thanks in advance.

Take your wife's advice on this issue. My mother worked for many many years as HR Managers in a number of high profile companies and she would also say if somebody sends in a reference letter with a resume they get trashed as soon as she realizes what they are... why you may ask? Very simply really generally speaking even when parting under less than the best possible circumstances, many companies will give a reference letter to more or less help someone move on and get out of their hair.. i.e. you can be an issue for someone else. Meaning those letters while they look great are not always 100% representative of their actual feelings about you, OR the letters are written by HR and are more or less form letters as opposed to being from your direct supervisor. So as they don't have the time or inclination to decide how real or valid a letter is, it's much easier if the previous employers are on the resume as they should be, to call the company and speak to your former supervisor, co-worker whatever directly.

Of they might be under a gag order or some sort of legal reason to not bad mouth you, it is much much easier to get what they need from the tone of the answers to their questions or the lack of answers to their questions, or the generic, WOW he's a team player type stuff...

When in Canada do as the Canadians do... leave the reference letters out unless they are asked for.

[scylla]

I agree with Bangkokcanuck.

Reference checks tend to be completed in person only once you have been selected as the preferred candidate (i.e. the firm that wants to hire you will either call your references themselves or have an external firm handle this check). When you see a letter with a resume (which you very rarely do), this tends to be a sign that the employee was given a standard reference letter as part of a termination package or something similar.

I have always viewed resumes that come with reference letters suspiciously because it's not normal here and it automatically causes me to suspect there's more to the story.

Obviously this is just my opinion based on my specific experiences. To give these comments context, the hiring I've done has been for the big banks.

[Canaswiss]

Thanks for the advise.

Now I understand why it could be a disadvantage to send those reference letters.

As said in Switzerland it's completely different, I am working as a recruiter in Switzerland right now and here it is weird to not have reference letters. Of course a reference letter is never as accurate as a real reference given to you over the phone, but it shows the exact tasks and usually shows you if the candidate left the company on good or bad terms. In Switzerland it's forbidden to write really bad reference letters and so as recruiter you learn to read between the lines and by the end get some good information out of it. I just didn't understand how it could be negative to send reference letters - now I do.

I will take the advice "when in Canada (or Rome) do as the Canadians do"

I'm sure that's not gonna be the last time I gotta adapt :-) I definetely gotta get used to the Canadian way of job searching and the whole employment sytem for that matter - quite a bit different....

[HoneyBird]

HI. I am in HR myself.

If you are coming to canada and want to enter the HR field budget at least $1000. CAD. But it would increase if you need to do courses etc.

You should come to canada with the following: Reference Letter/original Transcripts (several copies)/Info on your organization/Assessment letters.

Why? BECAUSE you need to join the HRPA (Human Resource Professional Association) in your Area asap.
This will help give you credibility.

So...getting started....
1. Join the HRPA (As a foreign professional you get a discount price for the first year) the HRpA progress can only be done when you become a permanent resident.
2. Have your qualifications assessed (Degree) I got mine done by the Comparative Service of University of Toronto. You can do this before you leave Switzerland. As it takes 2 months to get the results back. Plus they will require your transcripts and so forth and you can have the information sent to your spousal address in Canada.
3. Using your assessment - next stage will be to get the HRPA to recognise your degree.
4. If you have done an HR Degree - then you don't have to redo the courses but you need to submit your transcripts and pay $50.
5. If you did not do an HR Degree, then you will have to do the courses that you are missing. There are currently 9 courses. Some are offered on line and some you have to go to their location.
6. Get your swiss experience validated. You will have to pay $500. For that you have to fill out loads of forms, submit your resume, submit organizational charts of places you worked, state what you did, your responsibility and authority and what I did was include copies of all my reference letters as proof of my duties and that I actually worked there.
7. Now when you have furfilled all the above, you can then write the NKE exam. National Knowledge. Held in October and May of every year.  I am writing mine in May. Of course that will cost money too. I don't know how much but budget an additional $1000. For the HRwks package and for the exam and whatever else.

So its a long process! cost alot of money. But something employers want especially if you are a foreign professional. I have done all of the above and only exam to write.

With regard to reference letters...I actually did a portfolio with all my certificates, transcripts, that I walk around with at interviews. So I explain to them that in coming to Canada, I prepared a Work Portfolio that outlines my experience and qualifications that can help the Employer make an informed decision. I further explain that as a foreign professional I know that it sometimes the Employer may not be familiar with the qualifications obtained and in this respect I thought that a presentation would be helpful. Then as the employer go through, i explain little tidbits.

HOWEVER, in all fairness, they just run through the reference letters and only stop to look at the qualifications. Most commented that they liked the fact that I am organized and that I have a work portfolio.

Now if you have a work portfolio you can use the reference letters and explain how it works in Switzerland. However I do not advise that for every single application you send out to the world that you include references. Only if called for an interview you may mention a work portfolio. If an employer is interested in you, they would want to CALL all your employers. Here they are more interested in talking to your employers. SO in your work portfolio you can include a Reference Sheet. I will have to edit what I use (which I took from a recruitment firm) and post it for you in a bit. Or you can put your references down on your resume.

Hope that helps.

Reference Sheet for Honey Bird

Contact Name       Company      Relationship   Duration of Relationship   Phone Number/Email.
Mr. John Smith      A+ Recruit    Supervisor     3 years                           XXXXXXXXXX/ Jsmith @ ARecruit.com


Mine is in a table format with 5 references.

[dakonej]

Hi there

I have posted this under "finding work in Canada" but it seems like that part of the forum doesn't get a lot of attention....

Since I got my PR and am flying into Vancouver by the end of October I am starting to apply for jobs soon. And here's my question:
My wife is Canadian, I am Swiss. In Switzerland you get a reference letter from every employer and it is necessary to include every single one in your application. If you leave one out people will think that you have left the employer on bad terms or something else is wrong. Since I am going to apply in Canada soon, I would want to submit at least two reference letters with my inital application. One from my previous Canadian employer and one from my current employer in Switzerland. My wife says that in Canada you only submit reference letters if requested. She would include none or maximum one reference letter. What do others think??

I just think it's a great way to show what you have done in detail and whether the previous employer was satisfied with your work.... Plus having a reference letter from an employer from Canada should be helpful in my opinion. Even if it's not that common I can't see an employer dismissing my application because I included a reference letter or two.

Another question: Does anyone know of a homepage where I can advertise myself to Canadian companies looking for native German speakers?

Thanks in advance.

I agree with others in this thread: Canadian recruiters are not used nor inclined to shuffle through tons of pages to get to the meat about what your qualifications are and what experience you may bring to their organization. That said, be prepared, as canadianwoman indicated, to produce all relevant documents, reference letters (the portfolio is a great idea!), etc. on request. Canadian recruiters expect you to be honest about what you write in your resume, so they'll only request supporting documentation after they move your application up to the  next level in preparation for an interview.

As for a homepage to advertise your credentials, I suggest posting your resume on Canada Jobs bank (http://www.jobbank.gc.ca/Intro-eng.aspx), you need to register obviously but it's helped me handsomely. You can also create a professional profile on LinkedIn, stating your quallifications, experiences, language skills, etc. It's probably the most polished, and serious profession-related website around.

[HoneyBird]

Just to update. I got a job. For this particular job, I carried my work portfolio and they didn't even bother with it when I asked whether they were interested. However they called all my references (here and in my home country). So if you need more info do not hesitate to ask.

Approximately I took a 3 Weeks to get my first job (contract for 2 months) and approximately  1 month for my second job (contract as well but for 9 months). Though we could say there was a 2 month gap between the first job and the second job as for the first 2 weeks after my first job I was doing all my medical tests/dental work etc and then I started looking for the job. My new job starts in Mid august so I am home for 2 weeks after my job search ended.

Do not give up hope.

[dakonej]

Just to update. I got a job. ....

Congratulations HoneyBird! It shows that a well-organized person can make a good impression especially if the credentials are great!

[Canaswiss]

Thanks for the answers.

Unfortunately I don not have a HR education. I got a business management education and I am working as a recruiter for temporary work and it doesn't require any HR-certificates. Also I only worked in this job for 2 years so I guess I won't qualify. But I got a decent resume with 8 years of customer service experience and am quite confident that I will find some work one I arrive.

Take care