How can I bring my Ukrainian fiance to Canada? We have been denied twice

[frustratedincanada]

I met my fiance 18 months ago. I have been over to Ukraine 5 times and spent alot of time with her. We were engaged on New Years Eve in Kiev. We applied 2 times for her to come on a tourist visa before Christmas 2007 and we were denied because we could not prove that she would return to Ukraine after her stay in Canada (even though we presented all of the necessary documents that they required for proof of return... with these documents I also included a letter from me and my employer).
 Now I have 3 options left.
 1. Apply for a work visa ( my employer has offered to hire her as an interpreter/ tour guide/ office worker ) From my experience this is very time consuming and the success rate for this visa is very low.
 2. Apply for a student visa. I have got her accepted into University in my hometown. From what I have read we still need to prove she will return home after her studies and that is where we ran into problems with the tourist visa... so this one scares me.
 3. Get married and apply for a Sponsorship / Spouse. Of course, we cannot be married in Canada because she is not allowed to come here. I have questions about this.
 Can we be married at the Embassy in Kiev?
 Why does the permanent residence application take so long for the gov't to complete?
 If we are married and waiting for the PR to be completed, do we need to apply for a temporary visa for her to come to Canada still or is there another way for her to come here?
 Can I bring the permanent res application to Canada when I come home and get it processed in Canada?

 The bottom line is we are in love and want to be together. Why does it feel like my gov't is treating me like a criminal? My name has been attached to her applications that were denied. We followed the rules and I am a proud Canadian. I pay my taxes ($40,000 income tax/ year), I vote and I do not have a criminal record. Why does the gov't have the ability to tell citizens who they can fall in love with? Is there any legal action I can take against Canadian Immigration? My employer has an office in Mexico. Will I have to move to Mexico so I can be with the one I love?
 It sickens me to think that a normal Canadian citizen should have to deal with a government that doesn't care (AT ALL) about average Canadians. I am sure that if I was a millionaire, I would not have these problems.
 I hate to say it but I would move away from Canada, give up my citizenship because of all of this. I pay my income tax every year to a gov't that treats me like a criminal. Its not right and it makes me sick.

 Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thank you.

[Leon]

Well, are they wrong in thinking that she would not return if they gave her a tourist visa?  Isn't it exactly your plan to have her stay?  Maybe Canada should have something like the US does, a fiancee visa although I recently heard that the fiancee visa in the US takes about a year to get so maybe that isn't really any better.

Anyway, I don't see why you can't marry her in Kiev and then go back and file for sponsorship.  Looks to me that Kiev is taking about 11 months for 50% of cases so hopefully she will be with you in Canada within a year. 

[frustratedincanada]

I guess I should have wrote that we tried to get her a tourist visa for her to come and visit Canada for Christmas.... 2 weeks in Canada. When we got engaged in Kiev, it was kind of a spontaneous situation...not really planned.
 Call it old school but we wanted to try and live together before taking the marital plunge. Seems to be the norm in relationships these days...if there is such a thing as "normal" anymore.
 Thanks for your post.

[Leon]

There is nothing normal when it comes to immigration, that's for sure.  I know a US guy who married a Canadian woman and after looking at immigration process, they decided it was way easier for him to bring her over to the US than vice versa and I thought US immigration was bad.

If she didn't need a visa to come visit you or if she could get one, you would have the option to marry her here and apply inland.  You'd be together but she would be without a work permit probably for 6 months or longer.

[frustratedincanada]

So true,
Have you heard anything about difficulty getting student visas? I would think proof of funds for school, a letter from me stating that I will pay for all living costs (supported by letters from my employer and proof of earnings) and a return ticket bought and paid for should be a good start. I really appreciate your input. This is all new to me and I seem to get the runaround every time I contact immigration.
 I have a lawyer (my employers lawyer) coming on board to help me but he does work visas mostly and he is the one that advised me against the temp work visa. He said to get a work visa for an office worker is near impossible because of the Labour Market Opinion and so on.

[canthai]

Hello frustratedincanada,
My name on this forum is canthai, but maybe it should be frustratedoutsidecanada...

I was in the EXACT same position as you and I have learned to read the proper immigration forms, ask questions here, and try to have patience with this whole process.  My girlfriend and I encountered the same and were denied once for a TRV (temp. res. visa).  Our intention was for her to visit family/friends, blah blah blah.  Bottom line is (sorry to be blunt) Canadian Immigration is concerned that once immigrants get into Canada they won't leave and end up on our social system.  There is no special condition that applies for Canadian citizens, like you and I, who are in love.

I am currently living abroad with her, plans to marry in October and work here until her visa is granted.  I guess we are lucky whereas some other people do not have this option to be together at all.  Although, some people are luckier to be able to be together in Canada and apply for the PRV inland.

Anyways, welcome to the board and good luck to you and your girlfriend!

[frolic]

Proof that she will return is the difficult part.  I have experienced that myself.  A single women from Russia or the Former Soviet Union is cursed in that many who have gotten to Canada before with a visa have stayed or just gotten married and stayed so the bar is set higher for the burden of proof that they will return. 

They say...
"proof of on-going ties to your country of residence. This might include, though not limited to, marriage certificate, birth certificates of children, proof of ownership of property."  On-going ties like work at home, a house or property?  It's up to you to try to prove that point anyway you can. 

Even if you marry, she will still need a Temp Visa or Permanent application.  In fact it will likely be harder for her to get a Temporary visa then because you are married.  I have heard of people applying for Permanent first and then are able to get a Temproary visa at that point.  I guess then they know you are following the rules and she would have to go back to Ukraine for any interviews and get her mail about her application etc. 

You probably can't get married in the Embassy in Ukraine.  I remember reading they do not offer that and really it wouldn't matter anyway, a wedding in Ukraine is valid in Canada. 

[frustratedincanada]

Hi Frolic,
Thanks for your input. I want to give some advice from what I experienced so far on the Temp Visa. You said..

"proof of on-going ties to your country of residence. This might include, though not limited to, marriage certificate, birth certificates of children, proof of ownership of property."  On-going ties like work at home, a house or property?  It's up to you to try to prove that point anyway you can.
 
This is what Immigration Canada says they need for proof.

When we applied for the visa, we had documents for proof of ownership of property, a letter from her employer that she would return to her job after visiting Canada and copies of Bank Statements of her bank accounts that could only be accessed inside Ukraine. With all of this, they still did not believe us. This visa was just for her to visit me for Christmas, meet my family and to see if she liked Canada. We had full intentions of her going back home.
 So people (like me who are reading this forum for input and help) be warned.... Canadian Immigration says that they need proof of return and they provide examples of what you need for proof. These examples are not enough. If I knew what they wanted... I would not be in this situation.
 Guilty until proven innocent and the gov't is the prosecution, judge and jury.

[frustratedincanada]

Hi FrustratedoutsideCanada ) aka Canthai
 
There is something seriously wrong with the system when a government makes love near impossible and pushes people out of Canada. It is a definate possiblity for me also. I went into my local CIC office 2 weeks ago to ask questions... general questions because they cannot comment on other peoples visa applications (fiance). I was the only person in the office... it took me 20 minutes to talk to someone and the only person that would talk to me was the receptionist and she basically snubbed me and said if I wanted to make a complaint, I could take a pamphlet and mail a complaint to Ottawa (we all know that this is just a waste of paper)
Open Government... in reality... Open your chequebook and fight until the edge of sanity to get answers from the government.

[travel_fan]

Welcome to the logistics and reality of an international relationship with someone from a less-developed country.  Many before you (including myself) started the process of being in the same country (Canada) with one's fiance from a rather idealistic and naive place. I understand your intentions and have been engaged myself to someone who is from a far away country (a less-developed country - i.e. a country who's residents cannot travel as freely as those of us from developed nations).   We also tried the visitor visa unsuccessfully.  Because of the politics and economics of the country where you betrothed resides - you will have to accept the fact that the borders of Canada have much more stringent guidelines in terms of letting people in.  Unless your betrothed owns a company, property and has children that stay behind, it's unlikely you will be able to convince immigration that she will return after her visit - no matter how well intentioned you both are.  You will have to accept the fact that there are two ways of being together - 1) you go to Russia and live, or 2)you go to Russia, get married, come back to Canada and sponsor her as your spouse.  You will have to make the commitment before she can apply to come to Canada - there is no concept of a visitor's visa when one is engaged to someone from a less developed country.  The government naturally will questions people's intentions coming into the country. 

I don't mean to sound overly matter of fact - I have been in the same place of longing to be together with the man I loved, but had to deal with the realities of our international relationship.  We did waste a bit of time trying to do the visitor visa route, and quickly realized that was going to go nowhere.  I did go to his country (a few times), we were married, and 6 months later her immigrated to Canada as my spouse.  It wasn't the way I had pictured our relationship to go (I too wanted to live together first, etc), however we are happily married and together now after a smooth immigration process.  It was very difficult being apart, however the sooner you understand the situation you are in, the sooner you can get on with ultimately what you want - spending your lives together.

This forum is a great resource - they are tons of people who have experienced the exact situation you are in.  All is not fair in love and war...

Good luck with it all.

[frustratedincanada]

Thanks Fan,
 I have also realized the sponsor/ spouse visa is really the only option we have. The reality of the timeline to be approved for this is somewhat frustrating. With the size of our bureaucracy, you would think that it would be faster....maybe the problem is it is too big but that is a whole other discussion.
 I have my lawyer looking into the Provincial Nominee Program now to see if this is a viable route. I am not going to waste much time doing this as every day that goes by is another day we are not together.
 It is nice to see that there are happy endings with this and I am happy that your situation worked out. I hope that one day, I can write a happy ending to my story.

[travel_fan]

The fact that you have already applied for 2 tourist visas will make it very unlikely she would be considered for any kind of work visa.  If you are engaged and you want to be together in Canada, unfortunately the only way is through spousal sponsorship.   Immigration views it - if you intend to be together you must make the legal commitment first.  It does not want the financial burden of a "love gone wrong".  I saw a lawyer myself at a similar point in our relationship - he told us not to apply for another visitor visa - it would only look like there may be less of serious nature in the relationship rather than just getting on with the marriage and going through the spousal immigration process.

There are more happy endings than not - so don't worry too much.  Whatever you do, start documenting your relationship as you will need evidence for a spousal application if this is the route you end up choosing.

[frolic]

Not to rain on your parade, but the paperwork involved in getting married in Ukraine is probably not that simple either just to warn you. 

Check your inbox.

[frustratedincanada]

Thanks fan,
I have all of my travel reciepts plus my passport stamps of when I went to Ukraine. I think I also kept all of my emails from the start of our relationship. I am not sure about Skype (we have been using Skype phone/video for the last 8 months most.
 I am not worried about the paperwork involved.... at least I know things are moving forward when we get to that point.

 Thanks to everyone. We will start the process tomorrow. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all of the advice. Until yesterday, I felt like I was fighting a losing battle. Maybe I should write to Google and thank them too LOL.
 If anyone has anything else to add, please do not hesitate to post it. Can never have too much info.

Thanks again

[RobsLuv]

I met my fiance 18 months ago. I have been over to Ukraine 5 times and spent alot of time with her. We were engaged on New Years Eve in Kiev. We applied 2 times for her to come on a tourist visa before Christmas 2007 and we were denied because we could not prove that she would return to Ukraine after her stay in Canada (even though we presented all of the necessary documents that they required for proof of return... with these documents I also included a letter from me and my employer).
 Now I have 3 options left.
 1. Apply for a work visa ( my employer has offered to hire her as an interpreter/ tour guide/ office worker ) From my experience this is very time consuming and the success rate for this visa is very low.
 2. Apply for a student visa. I have got her accepted into University in my hometown. From what I have read we still need to prove she will return home after her studies and that is where we ran into problems with the tourist visa... so this one scares me.
 3. Get married and apply for a Sponsorship / Spouse. Of course, we cannot be married in Canada because she is not allowed to come here. I have questions about this.
 Can we be married at the Embassy in Kiev?
 Why does the permanent residence application take so long for the gov't to complete?
 If we are married and waiting for the PR to be completed, do we need to apply for a temporary visa for her to come to Canada still or is there another way for her to come here?
 Can I bring the permanent res application to Canada when I come home and get it processed in Canada?

 The bottom line is we are in love and want to be together. Why does it feel like my gov't is treating me like a criminal? My name has been attached to her applications that were denied. We followed the rules and I am a proud Canadian. I pay my taxes ($40,000 income tax/ year), I vote and I do not have a criminal record. Why does the gov't have the ability to tell citizens who they can fall in love with? Is there any legal action I can take against Canadian Immigration? My employer has an office in Mexico. Will I have to move to Mexico so I can be with the one I love?
 It sickens me to think that a normal Canadian citizen should have to deal with a government that doesn't care (AT ALL) about average Canadians. I am sure that if I was a millionaire, I would not have these problems.
 I hate to say it but I would move away from Canada, give up my citizenship because of all of this. I pay my income tax every year to a gov't that treats me like a criminal. Its not right and it makes me sick.

 Any thoughts would be much appreciated. Thank you.

You are not alone in feeling the way you do - bottom line, there are no advocates for Canadian citizens or PRs who want to bring their foreign national spouses to Canada.  Basically there has been such abuse of the Immigration system in Canada that everyone now gets treated like a criminal - and there is entirely too much discretionary power given to Immigration officials.  I seriously don't think that even having money would change things. 

The fact that she is from a non-visa-exempt country makes it especially difficult for you - but if you can manage to get her to Canada as a student or as a worker, it would be in your best interest to do so.  That way you can marry in Canada and file an inland application.  IF you include with the inland application an extension application in the form of a work or study permit, her temporary status in Canada is protected until the PR application is assessed and finalized.  She will be able to work after first stage approval, which is currently happening about 5 months after you submit the application - and finalization of the application will take between 12-18 months.  It's just not likely that you will be able to get her here now that they know you are a couple. What you have encountered is that once a foreign national is in a significant relationship with a Canadian, they can no longer convince Immigration officials that they intend to return to their home country after visiting Canada.  As you've discovered, it doesn't matter how much proof you give of ties to home or job to return to, etc., the belief is that the FN will not leave their beloved and will stay in Canada illegally.  And, of course, we can't have that (sarcasm). 

Lacking the ability to bring her here as a student or worker, I'm afraid the only way you will be able to be together will be for you to marry in Kiev (yes, you can do this) and immediately file an outland sponsorship application for her Permanent Residence.  Being a Canadian citizen, you can do that from Kiev, and stay with her during the processing - if you can manage that.  You have to be prepared to prove that you will, in fact, return to Canada with her once her PR visa is approved - so a letter from an employer stating that you will have a job waiting for you and/or proof that you own property or have a lease/rental agreement that you're committed to will be necessary. My suggestion would be that the two of you fill out all the paperwork, complete her medical exam, get her criminal clearances and collect all the documentation and evidences you'll need to submit during the months prior to your marriage so that, as soon as the marriage is legal and you have your marriage certificate to prove it, you can submit the application for processing. 

Both processes are pretty straight-forward, but trudge along at an intolerable pace. With outland the application will be sent first to the Case Processing Centre in Mississauga, ON where they will assess your eligibility to sponsor your new wife.  This takes about a month.  Assuming you are approved, the file will be sent to the overseas visa office in Kyiv for assessment of your wife's application.  The inland process finds the application being processed within Canada so that the applicant never has to return to their home country.  Either process requires that you prove that yours is a real love relationship and that your marriage was not entered into just to facilitate her entry to Canada.  The processing timeline for Kyiv to finalize your wife's application and issue a PR visa is 10-14 months, while inland finalization takes between 12-18 months.