Father is being detained and we're being deported!

[Leon]

Ohh, I know, "I have an idea too, after we deport all the illegal immigrants" let's find what race commits the most crime, and lets put them all in jail before they commit any crime, that way we would be saving thousands of lives, and reducing criminality to zero. Ohh wait, I think they have done similar things in the past haven't they?? Maybe the Nazis, or the KKK??? It's that the path you wanna follow??.

You are forgetting that the illegal immigrants already broke the law.  That is why they call them illegal, you know.

[frolic]

Ahh now it makes sense why you say the things you do.  Obviously your sympathies don't allow you any rational thought on the matter since you are so emotionally vested.  Your viewpoint is based on your experiences and background and is completely one sided because of this.  It is a viewpoint of "self-interest" and is only open to opinions that reflect those of your side of the issue.

And please, at no point am I saying illegals are not people or less than me or deserve to be treated poorly.  All I am saying is they have chosen the wrong path to improving their lot in life and that going the illegal way has consequences that they should be prepared for.  Consequences to their own life and how they are viewed by many in society, how it is outside the law and they may be treated as criminals because of this.  It is almost exactly the same as turning to a life of crime to improve your life...oh wait...it IS the same since they are breaking a law.  Do you agree that people should break a law to improve their way of life? 

First of all...since this is a Canada visa forum...why are we discussing illegals in the U.S.?  20 million illegals would be half of Canada.  We don't even have programs named medicare or social security.  I will just use Canadian figures from now on. 

Illegal immigrants sometimes pay more taxes because like you said, they are afraid that they can be caught by immigration for filling a tax return, so sometimes they don't fill one, thus they never get the money back they "deserve" under the tax laws.

Lets do the math...in Canada...with a population of 33.5 million, they say there are 300,000 illegals working here.  If they ALL overpaid by $1000 they would have added $300 million to our government's income.  Compare this to $110,477 million brought in from income tax in 2006/7.  So illegals make up 0.8% of Canada and contribute an extra 0.2% in taxes.  This is the BEST case scenario for how much they add extra.  An extra 0.2%...$300 million. 

Since they are theoretically working cheaper and keeping inflation down, they would pay LESS tax anyway than someone making the normal wage to pick an onion.  Say they are 10% cheaper?  So their income tax would be 10% less as well.  Say they are 50% cheaper?  They provide 50% less tax.  Is it posible that paying that whole group 10% less would reduce their tax enough to make up $300 million?  If they ALL made $30,000 a year and were taxed individually with only the usual deductions they would end up paying 21% tax in Ontario...in other words...$1.89 billion in taxes from their jobs.  Pay them 10% less and wow...$189 million less!!!  So now their overpaying $300 million is offset by them paying less tax to start by $189 million.  Now we are down to 0.1% or $111 million dollars they add.  And that is if they work for 10% less than their legal counterparts...if they are even cheaper...then it is even LESS tax.  If they were 16% cheaper they would not add anything...and if they are 50% cheaper they would cost taxpayers $945 million dollars.  The math doesn't look so good does it?

And finally...you say SOMETIMES they pay more taxes.  So you would agree that SOMETIMES they pay the right amount and SOMETIMES they pay less and SOMETIMES they pay NONE.
How many pay the exact amount and don't overpay?  How many pay less than they should?  And how many are working and paying none?  Any of these situations would REDUCE the extra amount they add to our taxes.  So with all these factors coming into play...just how much extra they are adding really?  Is it possible that the ones paying less tax or none at all cancels out the ones paying too much?  Since we don't know because they don't file returns we can't really know the numbers involved at all.  But we CAN say it is LESS than an extra 0.1% now. 

Hardly the huge benefit for our governments finances that you portray is it?  And that is if they ALL overpay by $1000...a best case scenario.  To be honest my refund was $638 this year and I make well over $30,000 so I really doubt that they all overpaid by that much.  If the payroll person knew how to do math you should come out close to what you owe anyway. 

Your tax benfits arguement doesn't pass the smell test.

Illegal immigrants want to be treated fairly and with respect, yet they ignore the fact that THEY are the ones not being fair.  How is it fair that some illegal that overstayed or bypassed the process gets to stay when there are many people who are trying to immigrate here legally who have to wait?  That is also not fair.  How is it fair that they ignore our laws and jump the queue to live here?  The Canadian government has a moral obligation to enforce the immigration laws and rules and process and to deport those here illegally because of this.  They have to be fair to Canadians and legal immigrants first.  You just don't want to accept that. 

[Flori]

Ohh, I know, "I have an idea too, after we deport all the illegal immigrants" let's find what race commits the most crime, and lets put them all in jail before they commit any crime, that way we would be saving thousands of lives, and reducing criminality to zero. Ohh wait, I think they have done similar things in the past haven't they?? Maybe the Nazis, or the KKK??? It's that the path you wanna follow??.

You are forgetting that the illegal immigrants already broke the law.  That is why they call them illegal, you know.

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Remember the fact those are the current laws, doesn't mean they are right. In some places its illegal for women to drive a car, and vote, or prostitution its legal, while in some other it isn't.
200 years ago slavery was permitted, and it was illegal for afroamericans to be in certain places, that doesn't mean that is right. Maybe in 10 years we'd realize how screwed up the system is, and things change.

[frolic]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

You're just arguing semantics now.  Breaking a law is a crime, therefore they are a criminal.  Although I guess your point is that it is a less serious crime than say a murder or assault.  Here in Canada you could go to jail for up to 2 years and/or receive a fine of $50,000.  I would say this differs in magnitude than say a speeding ticket of $120, wouldn't you? 

[Flori]

Im not being one sided, I'm realistic with what I've investigated, I do have sentiments involved, but I know the reality better than you. At least in some aspects. But you are being naive and sometimes dumb, And I want to specify, not all people who are against illegal immigrants are ignorant or dumb. I'm saying just YOU, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, YOU ARE A MORON, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, any other person may have differents points of view I haven't tought about that might be valid, and that I could understand even if I don't agree with them.
I do not know the stats for Canada, I couldn't know if the situation is the same, I don't think it is.
So that means, it's not the same case in the good part, nor in the bad part.
But still, illegal immigrants are not equal to criminals, in that aspect you are enormously mistaken, with no doubt.
Your concept on taxes its a mess. You can't say they cost money to Canadian taxpayers because they contribuite 10% less, or 50% less than what most of peple do. A taxpayer system is stablished in a certain way for everybody. So if you make certain amount of money, you are ONLY responsabile for paying your tax liability, nor for how much you should be making. So that means if you make 15% less than the average of the population, you should not be blamed for making that. Or should rich people say people like us who make less than a $100,000 a year are a burden because we should make more?.Also, I don't know how the tax system in Canada works but for what I know your tax obligation dependend on how much they make, and there are tax brackets who usually have wide ranges, so if you make 10% more, doesn't mean you are paying 10% more, you could be paying less than a person making even 20% less depending on what deductible items you have, your job expenses, etc.
Another thing is, if they weren't there, there wouldn't be paying any taxes neither, so how come do they upset the system by $945 millions, where do you even get those numbers? That means, nobody, will fill up those jobs, that means nobody contributing anything at all to the economy. Your whole point is if illegals weren't here, then legals would take their places, but thats just a theory, a MAYBE. A perhaps the goverment would fill up those jobs with legal immigrants, well what if they don't???Maybe the Canadian citizen would fill the jobs too, maybe the won't, maybe those jobs are too hard for them to work on, or to low pay and if they can have a better life collecting unemployment and then moving on to better jobs, those jobs would not be filled, and whey they are filled is because the pay has increase a 200% since nobody wants to do them anymore, driving up the cost of life a lot higher too. Now, that's not always the case.
It's not illegals fault if employers pay them less, maybe the employers should have competitive wages for all the people regardless of sex, origin, or background, Ohh Wait, I think they do!!!! So perhaps all this making 50% less doesn't even exist since most of the employers doesn't even know their employees are illegals, they pay a "fair" market wage, and whoever takes it, takes it.
And you are right, in Canada there's nothing like in the USA and Medicare, so it's not the same case. I know the situation in the USA, I don't know it in Canada. Here in the USA they treat them with the sole of the foot while at the same time they need them so much, and they won't accept that.
Since I don't know how things are in Canada, I will not keep posting in what I don't know if you say you want to talk about illegals in Canada,  unlike you I speak up for something when I know what the hell I'm talking about.

[Flori]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

You're just arguing semantics now.  Breaking a law is a crime, therefore they are a criminal.  Although I guess your point is that it is a less serious crime than say a murder or assault.  Here in Canada you could go to jail for up to 2 years and/or receive a fine of $50,000.  I would say this differs in magnitude than say a speeding ticket of $120, wouldn't you? 

Yes, BUT ACCORDING TO YOU, BREAKING THE LAW IS A CRIME, AND SPEEDING IS A CRIME, SO A CRIMINAL IS A CRIMINAL, THERE'S NOT SEMANTICS IN THAT. JUST PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.

[Leon]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you are allowed to break them.  If you want to change the law, you can protest them in other ways.

And yes, if I ever smoke a joint, feel perfectly free to call me a criminal too.

[Flori]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you are allowed to break them.  If you want to change the law, you can protest them in other ways.
You are tottaly right, haven't you notticed I've never argued that point?
And yes, if I ever smoke a joint, feel perfectly free to call me a criminal too.
OK This is what I mean, Leon, then if WE ARE ALL CRIMINALS or at least 99% of the global population, if WE ALL HAVE COMMITED CRIMES CONSTANTLY OR AT SOME POINT OF OUR LIVES, why are we picking up on the illegal workers? Why do we judge them like if we got any right to do so??If you are a criminal too, I'm a criminal, frolic is a criminal, why all the fuzz and why does it upset you so much the illegal workers in particular? Ohh yeah, they "skipped" the queue of immigration, or they came in when they were allowed to do so, hey but why should frolic speed then, why should he had the advange of putting other people's life in risk just to merely get sooner to his destination, or why if it its illegal to smoke weed do you have the privilege of doing in it just to merely have fun or satisface your desires, and now I quote something somebody here said about illegals "not obeying the rules because it doesn't suit their needs". We all do that to be honest, I'm not saying they aren't breaking any rules, but WE are, in no way different than them.
You have a right to demand that you keep your job over somebody who is not allowed to work, but other than that, I don't think there's much to recriminate them for. NOW IMAGINE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE SOCIETY CALLING YOU CRIMINAL, WOULDN'T YOU FEEL DISCRIMINATED?? JUST LIKE HOMOSXUALS, AND BLACK PEOPLE AND JEWS FELT??

You people have a hypocratic sense of love for the laws, where you said you despise immigrants because they are breaking the laws, but you break them all the time too, and that's OK for you right? So I guess your whole argument is IT'S OKAY FOR A LEGAL RESIDENT TO BREAK THE LAWS BECAUSE HE CAME HERE LEGALLY, BUT ITS NOT OK FOR A FOREIGNER TO BREAK THEM.
WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S OKAY FOR NEITHER ONE OF THOSE. IF THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY SHOULD BE DEPORTED. IF YOU GOT CAUGHT BREAKING THE LAW YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED. END OF THE HISTORY, BUT NOBODY SHOULD BE MISSTREATED FOR THAT.
In response to this Frolic
" Do you agree that people should break a law to improve their way of life?"
In my opinion, LAWS should have more MERCY for an illegal immigrant who broke the law to better him/herself and give them a chance to their family future, and who didn't hurt or threat anybody, than for somebody who steal, and kidnap, or commit fraud. But any case should be analized individually by the COMPETENT AUTHORITIES, not by you, or me.
Now think more about what a guy here said I think it sheed us some light and we never even mention it.
Whatever the history, at this moment, right here right now my humanity comes forward not some abstract
concept of citizenship (which will be real when all mouths have been fed and rested, which is not the case here).I DIN'T SAY IT BEFORE BUT THANK YOU SUBATOMIC. THAT WAS A GREAT THOUGHT. I believe if more people act and think like you, this world would be definetly better.

[frolic]

Do you actually read what I say?

Im not being one sided, I'm realistic with what I've investigated, I do have sentiments involved, but I know the reality better than you. At least in some aspects.

So you are not one sided and you are realistic BUT you admit you have sentiments involved which are obviously making you emotional on the matter and therefore affecting your judgement. 

But you are being naive and sometimes dumb, And I want to specify, not all people who are against illegal immigrants are ignorant or dumb. I'm saying just YOU, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, YOU ARE A MORON, IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, any other person may have differents points of view I haven't tought about that might be valid, and that I could understand even if I don't agree with them.

Then you go on to insult me.  Calling me dumb and a moron.  A usual tactic from someone who can't debate the issue properly. 

But still, illegal immigrants are not equal to criminals, in that aspect you are enormously mistaken, with no doubt.

Illegal immigrants have broken a law.  If you break a law you are a criminal.  Therefore illegal aliens are criminals.  Q.E.D.  And before you get started again comparing breaking a law speeding or breaking a law and murdering someone, we all KNOW there are different degrees of criminality you don't have to explain it again.  However...given the choice most people would prefer to live next door to a speeder than a murderer and the illegal immigrant is somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.  Yes yes we know we get it, but illegal immigrants are called illegal for a REASON...they have broken a law. 

Your concept on taxes its a mess. You can't say they cost money to Canadian taxpayers because they contribuite 10% less, or 50% less than what most of peple do. A taxpayer system is stablished in a certain way for everybody. So if you make certain amount of money, you are ONLY responsabile for paying your tax liability, nor for how much you should be making. So that means if you make 15% less than the average of the population, you should not be blamed for making that.

You obviously didn't understand my explanation...let me put it more simply, maybe the math was too difficult for you. 

Bob the onion picker is a legal immigrant or citizen, or came on a work visa and is working legally.  He makes $12 an hour usually.  He pays a tax rate of 20% so pays $3 in taxes.  Everything is legal so no other issues with Bob.  (I hear he speeds when he is late to work though you might want to report him)

Jeff the onion picker was here on a work visa and then overstayed...he had a SIN number so he gets another one fraudulently and continues to work.  He makes $12 and pays $3 in taxes.  Same economic benefit BUT he could be causing trouble for someone else because of the use of the SIN number, AND he technically is filling a job that could be taken by a legal entitled person.  Not fair to the guy who's SIN number it is and not fair to the other onion picker who has no job and collecting EI. 

George the onion picker is here illegally and is working under the table for an unscrupulous employer, he makes $5 and pays no taxes.  No economic benefit via taxes.  Somewhere a legally entitled worker is out of a job as well and collecting EI. 

Dave the onion picker is here illegally and has a fake SIN but because the employer suspects he can offer less money, he does.  He offers Dave $10 an hour so he only pays $2 in taxes.  Less money collected in taxes and he is filling a job that could otherwise be filled be a legally entitled worker.  Now here I know you will say it is NOT Dave's fault...but you know what...partly it IS...because he is here illegally he is partly responsible for this.  Not completely but partially.  The employer is also at fault too.  Also it is not fair to the legal worker who might have taken that job.

And finally, one for you...Scott is picking onions illegally for $5 an hour and pays taxes of $3 because his employer tells him he should.  He pays all the taxes he would have paid if he was making $12 an hour so no impact to taxes collected.  He gets no benefits back from the State because he is completely outside of society and in hiding.  Somewhere there is a Bob who could perhaps legally get that job and he is unemployed...he is on EI and collecting money from the government of $3.  Oh wait...$3 tax in from Scott and $3 tax out from unemployed Bob...$0 benefit!!!

So in the end...every example above where someone is working illegally has the potential to break more laws, cause an economic problem or cause a social problem...increased unemployment amongst legal workers.  It is not fair that some people escape the rules, and it does have an economic impact, especially when you multiply that by 300,000 or in the U.S.'s case, 13 million.  You might not agree with the rules but they are there for JUST these reasons. 

You say all my ideas are a theory...but to be honest...so is your premise that illegals are a positive influence...just a theory...I am sure we could both find examples to support both theories as it is not a simple issue. 

You call us hypocrits for loving the law?  Yet you admit freely that Mexico is a criminals paradise and people want to leave there because of it.  The U.S. and Canada are more successful BECAUSE of those laws and how they create a safe a fair society where people can be productive without having to worry about being robbed or kidnapped.  So yes...I embrace the laws and you should too. 

So I guess your whole argument is IT'S OKAY FOR A LEGAL RESIDENT TO BREAK THE LAWS BECAUSE HE CAME HERE LEGALLY, BUT ITS NOT OK FOR A FOREIGNER TO BREAK THEM.

My whole argument is that I have NOT broken the law we are discussing here.  I am a legal citizen.  I can work here, live here, vote here.  A foreigner who does any of these things is breaking a law...period.  So yes...it is NOT ok for them to do this. 

IF THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY SHOULD BE DEPORTED.

Finally you agree!!! 

And I have NEVER said I despise immigrants.  My wife and son are immigrants you know.  My father is one you know.  And I have NEVER said I despise illegal immigrants either.  All I have said is they have broken a law, a law put in place by my government which represents me, and they should respect that.

In my opinion, LAWS should have more MERCY for an illegal immigrant who broke the law to better him/herself and give them a chance to their family future, and who didn't hurt or threat anybody, than for somebody who steal, and kidnap, or commit fraud.

You are right here...and you know what...that is already built into the system.  Illegal immigrants are investigated and judged by the immigration system and detained, deported, ordered to leave, or even allowed to stay if they can show a valid reason within the law why they should be able to.  People who steal and kidnap or commit fraud can face much more severe penalties.  The penalties correspond to the law broken.  Just like a speeding ticket is enough punishment for speeding. 

But any case should be analized individually by the COMPETENT AUTHORITIES, not by you, or me.

  I don't judge and have no direct affect on any case...but I am allowed to comment and voice my opinion on the same issue.  Especially since I feel it has a direct negative impact on the country.

Two thirds of Canadians agree with coming down hard on illegal immigrants because they did not follow the rules.  So I am not alone in my opinion.  This is according to a poll released by CIC. 

Now think more about what a guy here said I think it sheed us some light and we never even mention it.  Whatever the history, at this moment, right here right now my humanity comes forward not some abstract concept of citizenship (which will be real when all mouths have been fed and rested, which is not the case here).

Citizenship is how western civilization has succeeded and is NOT just an abstract concept.  The rights and responsibilities of citizens have fostered societies that are positive, successful, dynamic and continue to be.  This includes voting, paying taxes, obeying the laws and acting to improve the country that you belong to through debate and participation. 

You like to ask point out we are all criminals and "what right" do we have to comment on this issue but the fact is if we are citizens, or legal immigrants who followed the rules, we have a right to feel cheated when people come here illegally and break those laws.  The Canadian government has stated they have a moral obligation to enforce the rules in fairness to the 250,000 people per year that enter Canada LEGALLY and all that have come before them. 

 

[Mel2904]

Funny how you never mention anything in your posts about your criminal fellow citizens who hire those criminal illegal immigrants. Isn't that strange...
Or they are maybe not criminals according to you?
Oh poor frolic, do you have a selective memory all of the sudden. Did you not have your coffee yet, poor guy?

I'll tell you why you forget. It's not a selective memory, there is no memory at all. How many times did you read in the newspapers that employer gets charged for hiring illegal immigrants. NONE. It's always the illegal getting caught, detained and deported. Even if you did, the ratio of employers being actually convicted to illegals being deported is probably 1:100,000. IT'S ALWAYS THE ILLEGALS WHO ARE PRESENTED AS BEING THE BAD GUYS AND CRUSHING SOMEONE'S COUNTRY ECONOMY, and they never or rarely penalize the employer. Do you know why?
You know why very well, you just don't wanna admit it because you're too much of a hypocrite. Because the prosecution of those would cost way too much and not even close enough to cover the "damage" (mumbojumbo that you persistently write about) illegals caused. Plus they know that cash never left the country. IT STAYS IN.   
Sooner or later, the guy who is hiring illegals for five bucks an hour will eventually cash out that money for something in HIS country, be assured he's not gonna go to Mexico.  Let's say it's a downpayment for a new house. He has to pay property tax to Uncle Sam and at the end, it all pours into one big fat piggy jar that the U.S. collects.

The reason you are not mentioning all this is probably of a personal nature, I sense somewhat envy in your posts toward illegals. Probably because you've experienced some excessive hardship when you were doing it the proper way, but at the same time THINK, and only think, that they have it the easy way. Oh boy, can you be more wrong.

[frolic]

Funny how you never mention anything in your posts about your criminal fellow citizens who hire those criminal illegal immigrants. Isn't that strange...
Or they are maybe not criminals according to you?
Oh poor frolic, do you have a selective memory all of the sudden. Did you not have your coffee yet, poor guy?

Must I accuse YOU of not reading either?  From my above post my feelings about them are quite evident as well...

working under the table for an unscrupulous employer

The employer is also at fault too.

Since this is a discussion about illegals working and what punishments they deserve I only brushed by it but yes you are right, they are commiting a crime and more enforcement there should be done as well. 
So since you missed that you proceeded to make a bunch of assumptions and claim things that don't seem to be based on any proof or thought. 

Even if you did, the ratio of employers being actually convicted to illegals being deported is probably 1:100,000.

100,000 to one...well maybe since there are 300,000 illegals in Canada that could be the case just because of the numbers of illegals to the numbers of companies... but would be nice if you could show that stat somewhere more reputable than just your say so.   

Sooner or later, the guy who is hiring illegals for five bucks an hour will eventually cash out that money for something in HIS country, be assured he's not gonna go to Mexico.

He might go to Mexico on vacation you know.  I've been, it's quite nice with wonderful people.  I highly recommend it.

The reason you are not mentioning all this is probably of a personal nature, I sense somewhat envy in your posts toward illegals. Probably because you've experienced some excessive hardship when you were doing it the proper way, but at the same time THINK, and only think, that they have it the easy way. Oh boy, can you be more wrong.

Now you are just trying to put words in my mouth.  I am a Canadian citizen and have gone through the legal process already and my wife and stepson are here and it only took 4 months.  For me to be envious of people who chose not to do things the proper way would be silly. 

Really everyone has choices..

Follow the rules like I did, it is hard work I know, maybe impossible even, apply to immigrate, and become a welcome, appreciated, part of your adopted country. 

Break the rules, become illegal, feel hunted all your life, be an outcast to most of the rest of society, and live making a few extra dollars but be unable to participate and take advantage of many of the benefits that a country provides because you are not really part of it.

Or accept your lot in life and make where you live a better place by applying hard work and good judgement.

Illegals have chosen their way, they don't aim for the best outcome, they take the middle road...they have made their bed and now they must lie in it. 

[Mel2904]

Legislators should come up with a more "selective" law about ilegals because I know a couple who are good people, wouldn't hurt a fly. Just don't have any other choice, as you may think that everybody does, they're trying to make their way in Canada. Hopefully things are gonna change, I for one am certainly gonna vote for that.

The reason I get agitated with your posts is that you are coming down a lil' bit too harsh and too judgemental on ilegal immigrants when you probably don't know any in person. Not that you need to know. Example is that you labeled Canadian employers as unscrupulous but illegal immigrants as criminals (you didn't even notice it), and just now you corrected yourself.

But hey, everybody's entitled to an opinion so let's just leave it there...

[frolic]

Legislators should come up with a more "selective" law about ilegals because I know a couple who are good people, wouldn't hurt a fly.

This I agree with...if someone makes one poor choice and comes to live in Canada illegally but can show they are productive, otherwise law abiding, tax paying, responsible people, with no health or older criminal issues then I have no problem with them being examined and allowed to convert themselves into a legal immigrant. 

Example is that you labeled Canadian employers as unscrupulous but illegal immigrants as criminals (you didn't even notice it), and just now you corrected yourself.

Actually I would say that you are just making assumptions.  Just because I gloss over the employers and thier criminality and fail to even mention murderers and rapists and speeders and war criminals does NOT imply I think they are not criminals.  You chose to make that leap of thought yourself.  So stop trying to put words into my mouth and work on staying on topic.

[Mel2904]

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I just think that since this is, like you say, "a discussion about immigrants and punishment they deserve" then you should also be objective and look at it from the immigrants perspective and what's even more important, about the causes of illegal immigration in general. And the truth is, if there weren't unscrupulous employers there wouldn't be criminal immigrants. They're the ones luring them back with cash jobs. And hey, who doesn't wanna get paid cash? If they stopped doing it there wouldn't be anything the guy would come back for. Don't you think? You keep feeding the dog, he will always come back.

"We have met the enemy and he is us"-Walt Kelly

[frolic]

I just think that since this is, like you say, "a discussion about immigrants and punishment they deserve"

Actually what I said was illegals...as in illegal aliens.  Giving them the title immigrant would portray them with a certain sense of legality that they do NOT deserve.  And in fact would be an insult and demeaning to many immigrants who came here legally, the proper way, and without breaking any laws.  What about their perspective eh?

What causes it?  How about this?  The main cause of illegal aliens is people who do not follow the 10th commandment, "thou shall not covet".  Since they are all guilty of wanting their neighbors wealth and prosperity and take action on it by sneaking into their neighbors country to get a piece of that wealth for themselves.


And yes I put that in as a reply to you specifically since you already used some religious quotes in this discussion.