Can you move out of Canada after you get your PR and still keep it?

[steaky]

For newspaper in English, China Daily is always available, at least in some newstand in Shanghai.

What made be worried was that most boarding passes (except dragonair) does not have the year part of the date printed.  So, I can't use them for this purpose.

That is my understanding Steaky.

Now begins the task of proving that we are together while abroad.  There have been several discussions about what constitutes proof of living together. Normal proofs are relatively easy to produce:  joint utility bills, bank statements, the occasional photo of places visited together, etc.

But the worry is always that we might encounter an unreasonable CIC officer on steroids, who decides to require unreasonable proof.  Documentary proofs can be faked.  Bank statements don't prove that two people lived together; only that they have a joint bank statement.  Same with utility bills. 

So what constitutes incontrovertible proof?  A monthly photo of the two with the day's newspaper (and date) in clear view?  In China (or any other country where newspapers are in other languages and English newspapers are not available, these photos won't work since CIC can demand that each photo be translated int English, with the translation certified.  A huge expense.

 I know, I may seem paranoid, but I'd prefer to do the creative thinking now, so as not to be at the whim of a CIC officer in five years time when PR renewal becomes necessary.   

[justina]

I suppose another way of thinking about the question is what would happen if my wife and I separated? (Not the case but consider the idea hypothetically for purposes of understanding the rules). My understanding is that I can retain my visa/status (and she is also obligated to provide minimum maintenance levels for the three year committment).  So, if I were recently separated, would I be able to land alone?

I don't think so. If you haven't landed and are not living with your spouse you are no longer eligible. If you land, are separated and lie about it, that's misrepresentation and you could be deported. Besides, why would you want to come if not to be in Canada with your spouse?

Marriage of convenience of legitimate marriage?

[uccemebug]

But the worry is always that we might encounter an unreasonable CIC officer on steroids, who decides to require unreasonable proof.  Documentary proofs can be faked.  Bank statements don't prove that two people lived together; only that they have a joint bank statement.  Same with utility bills. 

So what constitutes incontrovertible proof?  A monthly photo of the two with the day's newspaper (and date) in clear view?  In China (or any other country where newspapers are in other languages and English newspapers are not available, these photos won't work since CIC can demand that each photo be translated int English, with the translation certified.  A huge expense.

How about a child! 8^P

But seriously, I think your fear is well founded. I still can't get over how I was jerked around by the Customs people in trying to bring our possessions to Canada! In the end it seems that it was all down to one agent's snap decision. That decision was later overturned and we wound up with our stuff without so much as a signature.

[steaky]

Maybe or maybe not.  I wasn't earning anything (except small amount of bank interest) the last time I was tax resident before returning to Canada recently.  So, I don't worry too much about it.

I thought the poster is called Jonboy instead of Jonathan in this forum.  Is Jonathan his real name?

2)  But is CRA auditing those wh return after a decade?  That's my situation.

3) An accountant who frequents the tax part of this forum, Jonathan, is experienced in cross-border tax issues.

[uccemebug]

1)  If you sever ties with Canada and then return within a few years, that might seem suspicious to CRA. They might suspect you always intended to return, in which CRA would want to deem you a taxpayer during the years outside Canada.  CRA is more and more an instrument to interpret tax Law in Canada's favour, getting as much money as possible to fund Canada's expensive social programs.

2)  But is CRA auditing those wh return after a decade?  That's my situation.

3) An accountant who frequents the tax part of this forum, Jonathan, is experienced in cross-border tax issues.

I was gone for five years, but I've heard it now from enough parties that I expect that CRA will start paying closer attention to me. I've alerted them to the fact that I'm back, and checked that they don't think I owe them any returns.

[toby]

Maybe or maybe not.  I wasn't earning anything (except small amount of bank interest) the last time I was tax resident before returning to Canada recently.  So, I don't worry too much about it.

I thought the poster is called Jonboy instead of Jonathan in this forum.  Is Jonathan his real name?

Sorry; faulty memory.  Yes, it is Jonboy.

[Kaycee1]

Well, they have to be physically residing in Canada to join the health plan.  They can't di this if they go back "home".

I am a family physician in Alberta, and I have LOTS of patients that come to Canada for the 6 months of the year that is required of them to keep their health care active, do all their labwork, procedures, X-rays, physicals, etc. while they are here, then go back to their home countries for the rest of the year. I guess I'm just a bit biased because of what I see, but this is a LOT more common than most people think. I probably have 30 or 40 patients at least in my practice alone that do this.

[uccemebug]

I am a family physician in Alberta, and I have LOTS of patients that come to Canada for the 6 months of the year that is required of them to keep their health care active, do all their labwork, procedures, X-rays, physicals, etc. while they are here, then go back to their home countries for the rest of the year. I guess I'm just a bit biased because of what I see, but this is a LOT more common than most people think. I probably have 30 or 40 patients at least in my practice alone that do this.

That's pretty discouraging. What are they doing for the six months of the year that they're in Canada? Working?

Maybe the minimum "Canada time" should be bumped up to ten months.

[toby]

I am a family physician in Alberta, and I have LOTS of patients that come to Canada for the 6 months of the year that is required of them to keep their health care active, do all their labwork, procedures, X-rays, physicals, etc. while they are here, then go back to their home countries for the rest of the year. I guess I'm just a bit biased because of what I see, but this is a LOT more common than most people think. I probably have 30 or 40 patients at least in my practice alone that do this.

I was referring to people who are not taxpayers in Canada but try to get into a health-care program, even though living outside Canada for more than 6 months a year.

Others, those who do qualify for a health-care program -- the B.C. one at any rate -- must be physically present in Canada for 6 months or more.  That automatically makes them Canadian taxpayers, hence taxable on worldwide income, no matter where they earn it. So, those people are contributing to the tax base as if they lived in Canada full time, yet draw on the health-care system for only part of the year.  Canada is probably a net winner with these people compared to full-time residents.

[missmini]

I was referring to people who are not taxpayers in Canada but try to get into a health-care program, even though living outside Canada for more than 6 months a year.

Others, those who do qualify for a health-care program -- the B.C. one at any rate -- must be physically present in Canada for 6 months or more.  That automatically makes them Canadian taxpayers, hence taxable on worldwide income, no matter where they earn it. So, those people are contributing to the tax base as if they lived in Canada full time, yet draw on the health-care system for only part of the year.  Canada is probably a net winner with these people compared to full-time residents.

as a personal opinion i don't think Canada is a winner from them...first, they probably don't have any Canadian income (u cannot really work within the same company 6 months and then have 6 months off) or they have some small income which will not be taxed anyway; for the income outside Canada yes they should declare their business, property or whatever they have but let's face it, if they don't, Canada cannot really check all of them...not all come from Europe, US, Australia, Japan, etc where all is transparent and CRA could verify their declarations, many come also from countries where u still don't have a grocery receipt, not to mention the rest of the corruption, so how can u verify?

what Kaycee1 said it's unfortunately the reality of many provinces in Canada and hence the system became so over-saturated

[toby]

as a personal opinion i don't think Canada is a winner from them...first, they probably don't have any Canadian income (u cannot really work within the same company 6 months and then have 6 months off) or they have some small income which will not be taxed anyway; for the income outside Canada yes they should declare their business, property or whatever they have but let's face it, if they don't, Canada cannot really check all of them...not all come from Europe, US, Australia, Japan, etc where all is transparent and CRA could verify their declarations, many come also from countries where u still don't have a grocery receipt, not to mention the rest of the corruption, so how can u verify?

what Kaycee1 said it's unfortunately the reality of many provinces in Canada and hence the system became so over-saturated

All Kaycee1 said is that people some of his patients come to Canada for 6 months +, and get medical services.  He made no mention of whether or not they pay taxes to justify getting medical attention in Canada, although he perhaps implied it.

The truth is that we have no facts in this issue; we have only our suppositions about whether they pay taxes or not. So let me add mine to the pile.  You assume (without proof) that "they" earn little income, or in some cases neglect to declare it.

Not reporting foreign income is a criminal offense, so I assume that not many would take this step lightly. 

You assume that they earn little income because they divide their time between Canada and another country, and therefore cannot have a high-paying job.  I assume -- on the contrary -- that anyone who can afford the tremendous cost of moving to Canada for 6 months a year, perhaps maintaining a second residence in Canada, is likely to be high-net-worth person, not needing a day-to-day job, who pays lots of taxes on investment income.

So where do we end up?  Let's not make negative assumptions about these people  before we know the facts.

[uccemebug]

It's true that we can't really make any assumptions about the economics in any of this. Also it's worth pointing out that a doctor has no incentive to turn away business in this or any country....

P.S. I'll add that this must be the only discussion thread in the entire Internet that contains the words "Japan" and "transparent" in one sentence. Let alone the national disinclination for hard facts and accounting rigour, the sheer level of willful hocus pocus that goes on .. not a place where you can trust any figures in the slightest.